GSX_TC's Galant VR4 Build Thread #550/2000 (Samara)

[vr4play]

I would go the single pump route. I've seen tons of engine failures because of pump failure. You can do the 044 Bosch or you can do the 450 Walbro. The Bosch has been proven to over 600AWHP in a DSM. I can get you a price on the Walbro pump if you would like.

 

[slugsgomoo]

honestly with 92 octane you should be able to run 20psi with a single 255, I still can't figure out why you went to a fuel that doesn't shine until you're well above what pump gas can do when you don't have the fuel system to benefit it at all. Right now e85 is causing you to put down less power than you would on pump.

Crappy wastegate isn't helping, using boost creep rather than being able to set a proper pressure isn't helping.

Re-circulating the wastegate will reduce creep at super low pressures (which aren't necessary if tune/fuel/etc is right), however it does it at the expense of power. You will make more power with non-recirculated WG, and if you run a reasonable boost level the gate is generally not open unless you're at "going to jail" speed/RPM/boost anyway /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

If you're trying to make big power on ebay parts without supporting mods, you're going to cause yourself expensive breakage and disappointment. I don't want to rain on your parade, but I'd rather see you delay so you can do it right the first time and not have the hardships caused by rushing it on bandaids.

 

[turbofonz]

A single 255 was good enough for 136mph in my 1g on e85. That was absolutely maxed out though, I'd add fuel and it wouldn't change anything.

I'd personally go back to pump, run 25+ lbs and make way over 400awhp... then save for the e85 sized fuel setup.

I'm a fan of dual 255's. Cheap and it works well.

 

[diambo4life]

Quoting GSX_TC:
Do y'all think a Walboro 450 will be adequate for over 600+ though? Because that's what I'm stuck on, either dual 255's or a single 450.



Yes...a 450lph should be good for over 600whp but maxing a 3586? I don't know. I went 139mph in my old 1G with a single Bosch 044 (which is smaller than 450) and that's where it was maxed fuel wise with 1600cc's.

 

[GSTwithPSI]

Quoting slugsgomoo:
Re-circulating the wastegate will reduce creep at super low pressures



How so?

 

[89Patches]

I still think he should switch back to pump and have some fun at around 450whp first, And save up some money for a proper E-85 fuel setup.

Plus I really don't think the rest of his car is ready for 600+whp.

 

[curtis]

Quoting GSX_TC:
If the tuner and the engine builder suggest dual in tank 255's than i dont see why not. Cory Bowers was was suggesting i use a hobbs switch on the pump setup so that way the second one doesnt come on until a certain boost level. i do need to adress the boost creep issue though still because, when i dyno'd at TX2K most i got was 10 pounds due to the light load, but then on the street it creeps to 16 pounds. so im prob gonna change out that wastgate the same time i re-do the fuel system too. this turbo is not even in its range yet, so thats why its not behaving the way i want it to yet on such low boost. raced a buddy of mine from LA the other night and he pulled on me, granted he was on 28 pounds of boost and what he calls "an unfinished tune" and still maganged to pull past me. seems like i can barealy hang with him with im making that 16 psi but when i change gears to make it again it takes forever to come back.

I really dont wanna have to put a surge tank at this point, or at least not yet though because i still need to pay a few things off first and start saving up for our trip to the shootout this year. so if this dual pump idea works out and i hit the power level i want and i enjoy the car on the street as well then it'll stay that way for a while. but for now, i need to start saving up because the shootout is in 151 more days. =)




Ok I tried the twin pump thing circa 1994 and found myself stuck in front of 101st division headquarters at 16:57 on a payday weekend Friday. Boom goes the cannon and I'm standing in the intersection saluting the colors with a dead mustang in a thunderstorm. Pushed that bitch down the hill and in the rain pulled the top off and removed and hooked up one of the pumps after figuring out which was good. Lucky for me I had cut a hole in the trunk so I didn't have to pull the tank. This is not the only reason I hate them. I have 2 years of fluid mechanics classes, circuit design, theory, dynamics etc etc. sh*t is a band aid. I'm no Einstein but been there done that, Nelson has one of the if not the fastest in the world and plenty others one here are trying to help. But it comes down to simple math 2 walbros plus fancy bracket < the cost of one a1000/sx/ or even one of the big OBX ones. What really kills me about the people selling this curad brand set-up they're hooking these up to the stock hard lines. The factory hard lines can barely flow what one 255 pumps out. No way in Hell the pencil size crap can keep up with 2 450 pumps.

My buddies honda we sumped the factory tank and welded on -10 fittings, he bought an obx pump (see below) and an inline filter, runs up to a after market rail where it has a aeromotive regulator and back to the tank with -6.
Buy the AN line from Summit we bought it local and it all started leaking because they sold us BS. Thats his fuel system. As for a surge tank his sometimes acts funny when nose down on a hill so I'm going to weld up ends on a piece of IC pipe or a old fire bottle and make one. All a surge tank is is an open hole acting as a reserve. Car made over 500 on low boost 16/18psi with a 58mm junkyard turbo. Tuner was scared of it and wouldn't spray meth and was trying to tune a single 38 gate on 12psi and it kept creeping. Last pull on the paper work I figured out he was bleeping the throttle as he let off which throws the numbers off. I'm sure the intake I build will flow well past 11K not 8900.......... I'm going off on the phone telling him to turn the meth on and let it eat at 21 and go from there but tuner was scared of it. Tuner is now fired its going to Louisville in a few weeks with twin gates, 3 inch IC pipes short route, a haltech running E85, ported out header, intake and head and tricks done in the head and a larger turbo as well as a cusco diff and a twin disk, cage and a ton of suspension and corner balancing. Figure the car is in the 650 range on same boost and hoping to see 850 at 40psi. Doesn't sound the same and don't act it either also thinking we can get it on down in the sub 2K lbs range. OH if anyone has a b series cusco lsd speed sensor yell we need one bad. Paypal ready cause cusco don't seem to have anyone that speaks hot rod mutt transmission.

click me for OBX pump We've had zero problems out of it

Click me for 60-150 pull This was at the 530 range to the tires, doesn't have to be crazy elaborate to go hella fast.


I'm not typing all this to make fun, screw with you or anything else. You have a clean car and the parts to go well past 400hp. You just need a new roll model and learn to listen to the old crusty bastard sitting in the corner. I can't say sh*t my car is a damn workbench right now but if Nelson is speaking you really should listen. Now I've seen that turbo at the 600 range, its all in the combination and the tune and brother something is way off and seems like someone likes making money off of you. I don't know your whole build but that turbo likes air.... like 4 inch intake, big ass filter and 3 inch IC pipes. Ever think the BOV is leaking out. Only ones I trust are HKS and syncronic. I've welded up probably 30 different pipes where people found their xs power or tial is leaking whole time thinking its a gate. I hate piston types but have made plenty of money because of there shitty design or the placement on the pipe. Duct tape around it will tell you if its leaking or not after one pull. How are the vacuum lines routed. Each needs a dedicated line. I don't T sh*t off of each other....not even a gauge.

As for the load on the dyno I'll let my buddy in the crown vic know so he can say his is in the low 800 range because Mike said so /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif Just messing with you.

 

[curtis]

Speaking of old crusty bastards. Here's me and Toybreaker when we tried to get the x45 class started. Still don't know why it didn't take off like it should have.

 

[4thStroke]

Quoting GSTwithPSI:
Quoting slugsgomoo:
Re-circulating the wastegate will reduce creep at super low pressures



How so?



By decreasing the efficiency of the hot side of the turbo.

Rerouting the wastegate tube will introduce back pressure to the turbine and will keep the turbine from operating at peak efficiency.

We've been seeing boost creep issues with the 6466 on the Evo X running single 44mm gates. Our remedy to this? Running dual gates. The newer Precision turbine housings and wheels are a lot more efficient than they were in the past and boost creep issues are surfacing.

Although, running a cheap turbo manifold isn't always the bet idea either, aside from the durability standpoint. Wastegate location within the single scroll collectors can also cause creep issues if the gate isn't placed in a location where a large portion of the exhaust flow is subject to being able to be bled off.

However, we have NEVER seen boost creep issues with the Garrett series.

Mike has several areas that need to be addressed and it all goes back to the whole, "spend more now, or a lot more later" phrase. For now, it seems like he'd rather spend money on parts to say he has the "twin wastegates" and the like, instead of doing it right. To someone who doesn't know better, the bling factor is more impressive.

 

[iLLeffeKt vr-4]

Quoting mitsuturbo:


Edit: i just had a thought... any tuner that would take the time to tune "around" boost that creeps from 10 to 16psi isn't really going about things properly and if you've paid them, i honestly think you've wasted your hard earned money. It would have been better spent getting whatever you need to achieve a flatline boost response once the turbo spools so that you can get a more adequate and reliable tune going on. They should have told you to, or helped you to fix the boost issues before trying to tune it for any sort of power.



+100000000000
Find a different tuner man, your current one is wasting your time and collecting your hard earned $$$.
Back when I had my vr4 my tuner told me to get the boost creep figured out before I went back to him. Kept creeping from 20psi to about 26psi.

 

[4Grim]

Curtis is my new role model /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[GSTwithPSI]

Quoting 4thStroke:


By decreasing the efficiency of the hot side of the turbo.

Rerouting the wastegate tube will introduce back pressure to the turbine and will keep the turbine from operating at peak efficiency.

We've been seeing boost creep issues with the 6466 on the Evo X running single 44mm gates. Our remedy to this? Running dual gates.



In theory that sounds good, but in practice I doubt it would work. You may add some restriction to the turbine side of the housing by recirculating the wastegate, but you're also adding more restriction to the wastegate itself. That's basically no different than suggesting a choke point be added in the downpipe to reduce the flow from the turbine. Both are ridiculous, and are not addressing the real issue, which is the need to make the wastegate less restrictive. Taking a dumped wastegate in its least restrictive state, and modifying it to a more restrictive state is just being counterproductive.

You said yourself you upgrade to dual gates to remedy the creep issues on the Evo 10. That makes sense. What doesn't ever make sense to me would be adding a restriction to the system in order for it to function properly. If you are playing in the realm of turbine housings that are too efficient, then restricting the exhaust system to eliminate boost creep would probably never be the "good solution" from a performance standpoint. A giant wastegate, or pair of wastegates would be the likely solution.

Bottom line, recirculating an already dumped wastegate to correct boost creep seems pointless in any situation. Its a band-aid on a band-aid approach if you ask me. I suggested in my earlier post that Mike add a full exhaust system to possibly help with his issue. A full exhaust is about all the restriction I would ever intentionally add.

 

[4thStroke]

I completely agree with what you said and didn't make it sound like I was an advocate of choking up his exhaust, I was only backing up what slugs said since his point was valid, but not the way I (or you) would fix the problem. I was just explaining how that would help one of the issues Mike is having. Adding a full exhaust system will ultimately achieve exactly what rerouting the dump would do, add back pressure. Again, in no way am I an advocate for running an open downpipe on a street car, but that point is moot.

In no way am I a fan of over complicating a system that has been proven to work and work well time after time by adding inferior parts to band aid other issues that are taking place because one simply did not build it correctly the first time. If the car had been setup with quality counterparts, I have no qualms with saying that the car would not creep and would perform as it should... so long as the fuel system was there to support it.

In the end, it does sound cooler to say you have twin wastegates that VTA off your tubular manifold, run an open downpipe, and use ethanol... so long as the party on the receiving end doesn't know the rest of the setup.

 

[GSTwithPSI]

Hey Spencer, no worries. I just wanted to be clear, that adding a restriction to the exhaust system is probably a bad idea 99% of the time. I didn't mean to make is seem like you were advocating for such nonsense, and appreciate the explanation you gave. After reading your original response, I know I'm definitely not telling you anything you don't already know. But, if Mike's tuner is suggesting such nonsense (I'm assuming that's who the idea originally came from), then someone should clear up why that's a rather obvious, and poor idea.

Someday, maybe I'll be cool (and rich) enough to run dual wastegates. Until then, I can only appreciate how they work. Mike has indeed started with some inferior parts, but he seems to be upgrading over time as most of us do. I think this is the part where G chimes in and says "You buy cheap, you buy twice." Mike is free to buy whatever parts he wants, and can figure out for himself where G's stereotype comes from. And, he'll get plenty of flack for it along the way. But, at the end of the day, Mike has made a lot of progress and his car has transformed drastically from where it started.

 

[slugsgomoo]

Thanks for making my points, I hadn't gotten back on here.

There are volumes of data from ten years ago about going to a dumped o2 causing significantly more creep than recirculated. No, decreased efficiency isn't the "right" solution, but it is "a" solution.

I'm not surprised the turbo creeps up- it's being run on reportedly an ebay knock off wastegate and a target boost below the default TiAl spring pressure that everyone runs (1bar). I've never seen anyone in a mitsu try to run under 20psi on anything bigger than a 30r because there is no point. A well sorted evo3 car will make more power on 92 octane than a 35r will if you try to run 11psi with it- it's basically a way to turn an awesome $2k turbo into the equivalent of a bodykit. Not saying this just to beat up mike, but there are significant issues that need to be addressed in the "do it once, do it right" vein.

 

[fuel]

What is this? click

500 all wheel hp? I don't even..

 

[fuel]

test

 

[GSX_TC]

Changed my own oil today on the VR4 since the new setup and tune, I'm pretty proud of myself =)

 

[Jesus_Negros]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/applause.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/applause.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/applause.gif

 

[Olson]

hahaha sad you had to tell everyone you changed your own oil..... i changed and engine on a airplane the other day