Failed emissions

[004tsi]

Ran my car through emissions this afternoon, it failed /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif
It has a maft pro, 3in tbe no cat etc etc...
idle limit hydrocarbons 220 ppm tested 222 ppm cruise (2500 rpm) limit 220 tested 250
Two questions, will advancing the cas help a lot with unburnt fuel with no cat, and will denatured achohol help with no cat /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif I could pull fuel with the pro but it was already like 15:1 at idle and or 18:1 at cruise on the wideband

 

[GVR4_1057]

Did you have a tank of 87 octane and a well warmed up car? This helps.

 

[fivestardsm]

I just saw some "emission pass" the other day in the local autozone. It says on the container that it is Gaurateed to pass emissions. Now granted the mods make it harder, but being that you were pretty close, would it be worth trying? I belive It was ( CRC ) But I don't remember the name of the stuff for sure.
We don't have emissions here in Michigan, so I never had to mess with it before.
Hope this helps.

click

 

[ktmrider]

Low octane gas and warmed up MIGHT help.
Going lean will make the NOx rise dramatically.
Bite the bullet and run a high flow cat will probably be the solution.

 

[steve]

Quoting fivestardsm:
I just saw some "emission pass" the other day in the local autozone. It says on the container that it is Gaurateed to pass emissions. Now granted the mods make it harder, but being that you were pretty close, would it be worth trying? I belive It was ( CRC ) But I don't remember the name of the stuff for sure.
We don't have emissions here in Michigan, so I never had to mess with it before.
Hope this helps.

click



OK this begs the question.... why, if you have no emissions testing in Michigan, does an AutoZone presumably in Michigan stock the "emission pass" product?

 

If your oil is old, change it. Old and burnt oil can raise HC's. Also wouldn't hurt to go the high flow cat route as previously suggested.

 

[Dialcaliper]

Are you sure your wideband is operating properly? 18:1 at cruise is approaching the point where the A/F mixture should be having trouble igniting. If you actually had those A/F ratios, you should be failing NOx, not HC/CO.

Besides the high HC's, if your NOx is still pretty low, it's a sure sign that:

A) You are running rich despite the wideband reading, especially if CO is also on the higher side.
B) There's something wrong with your wideband.

First, see if you can lean it out more - if you can raise the cruise A/F ratio higher than 18:1, your wideband is definitely giving a faulty reading. Pull the wideband out and inspect it for fouling. Try recalibrating it (consult the instructions for your wideband) - you're technically supposed to recalibrate them every 6 months to a year or so. See if the reading changes, and then retune the A/F ratios.

Alternately, there might be something wrong with the equipment at the shop. I've noticed here in Cali that the really cheap shops don't clean or take care of their emissions equipment. I failed at one shop, then went to another that was a bit cleaner for the retest (without really changing anything - I couldn't really find anything wrong with the car) and looked like the equipment was better maintained (it was also a bit more expensive) and I passed just fine. Pay special attention to the probe they stick in your exhaust - if it looks damaged or fouled with carbon, it can have problems getting a correct reading.

It's not impossible to pass with no Cat, but it is difficult. Change your oil, and then give the car an "Italian tune-up" before you bring it to the shop. Aka, go take it for a hard drive (this is more important for getting the Cat hot, but it can still help)

If you can determine that the wideband is reading properly, you might be running too lean, or have fouled or damaged spark plugs - listen to the engine to see if it's missing, as that will definitely raise the unburned hydrocarbons through the roof. Also, recheck your base timing - if it's retarded too far, that can also raise HC.

 

[Myles]

Quoting steveVR4:
Quoting fivestardsm:
I just saw some "emission pass" the other day in the local autozone. It says on the container that it is Gaurateed to pass emissions. Now granted the mods make it harder, but being that you were pretty close, would it be worth trying? I belive It was ( CRC ) But I don't remember the name of the stuff for sure.
We don't have emissions here in Michigan, so I never had to mess with it before.
Hope this helps.

click



OK this begs the question.... why, if you have no emissions testing in Michigan, does an AutoZone presumably in Michigan stock the "emission pass" product?



Maybe just no emissions for cars as old as ours? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

 

[ktmrider]

Quoting steveVR4:
OK this begs the question.... why, if you have no emissions testing in Michigan, does an AutoZone presumably in Michigan stock the "emission pass" product?

Many states do not require emission testing but local counties/cities do. NM for example, if you live in Bernalillo county ( basically ABQ ) you are required to have an emission test.
Literally drive 2 miles away to Rio Rancho, located in Sandoval county, no emission needed.
Guessing the parts stores carry area products instead of local items?!?

 

Quoting ktmrider:
Low octane gas and warmed up MIGHT help.
Going lean will make the NOx rise dramatically.
Bite the bullet and run a high flow cat will probably be the solution.



people really think a hiflow cat is THAT bad? The magaflow i got with my certified exhaust is sweet. You cant even tell you have a cat @ 20psi on a e16g. When #78 got inspected it passed with flying colors as all of the readings where HALF of what the state set for a limit. I am going to get a test pipe one day just because using the studderbox with the cat isnt all that great for it. But with the cat on the studder it would build crazy amounts of boost (hold right at 18) but im sure it would deffently destroy the cat after repeated use of doing that. Even if you bought the HI flow cat just to have whenever your emissions tests come up you will always pass and not have to worry about your mods or tune.

 

easiest thing to do to make sure you dont go through this again wouold be to get a shop to make you a bolt in cat. also have them make you a test pipe for"track" duty

 

[Ian M]

I'm guessing you received a TSI (two speed idle-curb idle and 2500 rpm) test,they will not measure NOx since it is only created under load. Only a ASM test would measure Nox.

If your ECU is still using the stock O2 sensor,is it cycling?

 

[GHETTOSwing]

What kind of timing are you running? I would try retarding a degree or two. Bring the EGT's up/HC's down, but NOx will go up. Assuming you're really at around ~

 

[4thStroke]

chris, I killed a cat pretty quickly with my stutterbox, they sure dont like raw fuel!

If you have access to E85, you should pass without any problems. Even if its just a safe tune to get you to and from the DMV.

 

[Dialcaliper]

Not quite - some TSI tests do test NOx. NOx is actually more likely under cruise than under load, since cruise mixtures are leaner (around stoichiometric). Under load, mixtures tend to run a little rich, which is more likely to show CO and HC. NOx formation is only partially related to temperature - high temperature is required, but it can only form when there is a lean mix or timing too far advanced with excess oxygen.

It's very hard to get high levels of both HC and NOx together unless there's something very wrong with the engine, and nearly impossible to get high levels of all three unless you have something like a clogged injector causing different mixtures in each cylinder.

Quoting Ian M:
I'm guessing you received a TSI (two speed idle-curb idle and 2500 rpm) test,they will not measure NOx since it is only created under load. Only a ASM test would measure Nox.

If your ECU is still using the stock O2 sensor,is it cycling?

 

Quoting 4thStroke:
chris, I killed a cat pretty quickly with my stutterbox, they sure dont like raw fuel!

If you have access to E85, you should pass without any problems. Even if its just a safe tune to get you to and from the DMV.



im sure they dont hahh. It takes no time to bolt in a cat then remove it after the testing. Ive heard a lot of dry gas in the tank will help ya pass to.

 

[Ian M]

Quoting Dialcaliper:
Not quite - some TSI tests do test NOx. NOx is actually more likely under cruise than under load, since cruise mixtures are leaner (around stoichiometric).



Interesting. I've never heard of a TSI test that measured NOX.

I'm not sure about Washington (where the original poster is from),but I know Virginia measures NOx on a ASM style test,but doesnt on a TSI because the amount produced without a load on the engine is too small to be accurately tested.

 

[14bCrazy]

In case you guys don't know Ian does this for a living. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

 

[Dialcaliper]

That actually does make sense - I guess I can only vouch that I've seen it on the report, and that it had a limit listed. My guess is that here in California where they do mostly ASM tests, it's simply measured and printed out by the same equipment. That being said, I've never failed NOx, nor known anyone that has failed it on a TSI test.

So if it's nearly impossible to fail NOx on a TSI test, I guess that means you might be able to cheat emissions on a TSI test by simply running a bit lean in closed loop with slightly advanced timing. (provided you can so so without damaging the engine). That will ensure that HC and CO stay low. A bit of denatured ethanol in the tank should help too (to run leaner and keep the octane up).

Did I say "cheat"...I meant "pass completely legitimately"... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif


Quoting Ian M:
Quoting Dialcaliper:
Not quite - some TSI tests do test NOx. NOx is actually more likely under cruise than under load, since cruise mixtures are leaner (around stoichiometric).



Interesting. I've never heard of a TSI test that measured NOX.

I'm not sure about Washington (where the original poster is from),but I know Virginia measures NOx on a ASM style test,but doesnt on a TSI because the amount produced without a load on the engine is too small to be accurately tested.

 

[4thStroke]

004tsi- have Lucas make an E85 map for you. Theres an E85 pump at 5 corners and in Battle Ground (if you didnt know). I was actually talking to Aaron about it last time I was there. He told me if I had an issue with emissions on 92oct, youd get through no problem on E85.