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Does anyone make offset cam keys for the 4G63?


turbogalant
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 420242 posted 12/19/06 06:48 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I am thinking about centerlining my cams on my car, but don't want adjustable cam gears, I don't like them, but I will use offset keys, I just don't know where to get them.

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TheJackalGT
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 420245 posted 12/19/06 06:53 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
couldnt you just redrill them? How much do you want to offset them?

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turbogalant
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 420257 posted 12/19/06 07:16 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
How would you re-drill them? I don't know how off they are, I won't bother checking until I know I can get them, there is no reason to.

Anyway I'm looking for something like this.




Edited by turbogalant (12/19/06 07:17 PM)

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TheJackalGT
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 420258 posted 12/19/06 07:20 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I was thinking your were tryin to rotate the stock cam gears, much like adjustable cam gears move, but you cant because there is a dowel pin. I thought you needed a new place for the dowel pin to be, hence why I suggested drilling.

I have no idea how you would use those keys.. Maybe Im just too out of it.

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digit
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 420259 posted 12/19/06 07:32 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=DCC%2D3690936&N=700+115&autoview=sku

The one's you linked to are not for our cams.

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turbogalant
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 420261 posted 12/19/06 07:39 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I know they are not for our cams. If they were I wouldn't have posted this thread. They are actually the V-8 version of what I am using to degree my Daytona's cam.


Edited by turbogalant (12/19/06 07:44 PM)

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digit
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 420262 posted 12/19/06 07:50 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Well the ones I linked are what you are looking for and will work with our stock cam gears.

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turbogalant
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 420267 posted 12/19/06 07:57 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Those ones will work? I saw those in my MP book, but I really don't understand how they work.

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digit
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 420268 posted 12/19/06 08:00 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
You drill the original hole bigger to the DIA of the offset key, you then insert the offset key you want that will degree the cam you want(make sure the direction is also what you want) and put it in. You just have to figure out which way you want to secure it to the cam gears. I can draw you up a little diagram if you want of how they work.


Edited by digit (12/19/06 08:00 PM)

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turbogalant
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 420270 posted 12/19/06 08:10 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Awesome, have you ever used those on our cars? Just wondering if the pin diameter is the same.

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kschwab
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 420279 posted 12/19/06 08:52 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Maybe it's just me, but I initially had trouble visualizing this.
Skip reading the rest of my post if you already understood how an offset woodruff key works

Basically, forget the dowel pin we use to lock the gear to the cam.
Think of a half-moon cut out of the camshaft. You then have a "key",
also shaped like a half-moon that drops into that machined slot in
the camshaft.

Like this:



So then, you can have a "regular key", a simple half-moon, that would
align with a slotted cam gear at 0 degrees.

Like this:



But, if you wanted to "move the slot", you could machine a specially
offset key like so:



That way, the half moon drops in just as before, but the exposed part that lines up with the cam gear is shifted over.


Edited by kschwab (12/19/06 08:55 PM)

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curtis Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 420283 posted 12/19/06 09:10 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
After you get digits offsets in the bolt head should cover them But to be on the safe side take a center punch and stake the edges in the 4 quadrants or 6 or 10 ever how many times you want this will keep them from shifting. Also if you mic the offset bushings and they are .500 get a 7/16 bit to drill the hole you don't want any slop in the system. Take it slow and don't rush. a .500 drill bit will always drill slightly larger because of flex in the bit and or metal shavings eroding metal you want as you drill. reamers are cheap so are stepped drill bits when you compare them to the price of a new head or engine.



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gtluke
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 420304 posted 12/19/06 10:12 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
i never understood why this wasn't a more popular question.
there should be 5 dowel holes in our cam gears, or someone willing to drill out stockers.
straight up, +2, +4, -2, -4
that how the cam gear is on my mustang.
pick your hole and you get your cam timing.
though, i've seen a thousand dsm's with "cam gears yo" but i've never seen anyone assemble an engine with a degree wheel or ever move the cam gear off "0"
i even like to ask the owners what moving the gears + or - does to the power and they never know :P



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turbogalant
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 420340 posted 12/20/06 12:30 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

or someone willing to drill out stockers.



Oh Curtis, new job for you buddy .

I think the reason is simple, people will work on their cars for countless hours tuning them, trying to get rid of their knock problems, and trying to make more power; but having to use a dial indicator and a degree wheel is too much work . Honestly, the truthful anwser most people don't understand how important it is and some, like me, are worried about using adjustable cam gears.

I'll be honest though I owned a degree wheel, the adapter you need to do a turbo dodge, offset cam keys, everything but a dial indicator for a couple years before I just decided a couple weeks ago to buy a dial indicator and finally degree it.

One of the biggest ricer mods ever!

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TrendSetter
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 420366 posted 12/20/06 06:12 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

You drill the original hole bigger to the DIA of the offset key, you then insert the offset key you want that will degree the cam you want(make sure the direction is also what you want) and put it in. You just have to figure out which way you want to secure it to the cam gears. I can draw you up a little diagram if you want of how they work.



i tried some chevy ones and the dowel is a little bit bigger on the chevys than the dsm. i planned to drill out the hole in the cams and put chevy dowels in. another option is finding some with smaller holes.


Edited by TrendSetter (12/20/06 06:14 AM)

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LunarShadow
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 420414 posted 12/20/06 08:25 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Question!

I am trying to figure out another issue. I can understand how this would work for a engine with a single cam gear. But, with dual overhead cams, I see a problem. If the cam gears have teeth and the belt has teeth, and the gears are a set distance apart, then you can only degree the cams one tooth at a time. So, it seems to me that you would need to be very careful or you could mess up the belt tension between the gears, and the cams would rotate after you lined them up.

I see the same problem with the adjustables, but at least you could change the degree a bit. I guess my overall though is that you may not get them exactly where you want.

Am I not understanding something?

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digit
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 420419 posted 12/20/06 08:37 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
It doesn't move the cam gear in the timing belt. It moves the cam inside the head forward or back while the gear stays in the same space. Hence degreeing the CAM, not the cam gear.


Edited by digit (12/20/06 08:37 AM)

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curtis Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 420420 posted 12/20/06 08:48 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Adjusting the 5.0's and chevy's have been a secret to some for ever. Lots of the guys will buy a motorsport agjustable set-up and install it straight up. Luke if I'm wrong yell but If you retard the cams 4 degrees the power band rises and if you advance the cams the power banc drops. For a 5.0 I can't remember how much I think it was about 150 to 200 rpms per degree. With that said. Advancing a street car with bigger turbos would help with bottom end grunt and retarding a track car to pull top end would help.


Now for doing it on ours

Buy the chevy kit and drill out the gears You'll also have to enlarge the hole for a same size dia. chevy dowel. Most cam companies like lunati or comp that do alot of chevy stuff will have chevy dowels. Or use a stepped dowel pin mosted stepped dowels are made so they can't come out large on the inside small on the outside. With this it will be oposite. When I installed my crowers I didn't get any dowels so I cut a metric bolt (grade 8)to work. Not the thread but the un threaded section below the head. They've been in there for 3 years so I guess it worked. Chevys are standard and american so I I would bet a 5/16, 1/4 or 3/8 inch grade eight would work. Next time I see a set on the shielf I'll pick a set up and see what happens.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 420421 posted 12/20/06 08:50 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

One of the biggest ricer mods ever!




WTF?!? Why?



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TrendSetter
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 420424 posted 12/20/06 08:55 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
using a bolt might work on a dsm but i assure you that shit wouldnt fly on a solid roller cam domestic. im not sure i would use a bolt even in a dsm. that same hardware store you bought the bolt from more than likely carries hardened dowel pins as well.

moving the cams around to 'move' your power band can be helpful but another reason to degree in the cams is to make sure they are ground/installed on the proper lobe center.

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LunarShadow
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 420459 posted 12/20/06 10:15 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

It doesn't move the cam gear in the timing belt. It moves the cam inside the head forward or back while the gear stays in the same space. Hence degreeing the CAM, not the cam gear.




DOH!

I really shouldn't post after a just rolled out of bed.

There is one thing that I do know might be a problem. Our cam gears are very brittle. I bent one of mine just using it as handle to pull off the head. I gripped it along with the water neck. I don't notice it until I got it all back together and noticed the gear had a wobble. I removed the gear and then tried to straighten it by gently pressing against a flat surface. A crack appeared on one of the spokes.

I have also seen a bunch of shattered gears at the local u-pick.

I would be worried that any work on the gear itself would cause damage.

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turbogalant
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 420712 posted 12/20/06 11:48 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

Next time I see a set on the shelf I'll pick a set up and see what happens.


That a boy!

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dsm_drew
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 429788 posted 01/14/07 12:07 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

Well the ones I linked are what you are looking for and will work with our stock cam gears.




How do those bushings work with our cam gears? I understand degreeing a camshaft, but I'm having a hard time visualizing how those bushings would accomplish it.

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TrendSetter
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 429825 posted 01/14/07 02:07 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
you drill out the hole in the stock gear to fit one of those bushings into it, the bushing then effectively moves the dowel hole so the gear is either advanced or retarded a certain amount.

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dsm_drew
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 429841 posted 01/14/07 02:38 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
Ok, I get it now. Thanks.

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