Roll cage

Only problem I see with that is what's going to keep the hoop "straight" in the event of an incident? Without dome kind of "tie in" support bar(like with a cage or 6pt bar setup) its just going to fold over I would think.

I think anyone who does any kind of real racing should get a real bar/cage setup. The harness bar is more for the dd people who want a little more support/security with a better look, IMO.

 

[slugsgomoo]

Quote:
Harness bars are bad news!!!! Many track day people wont let you run with one and racing seats.... If you roll on track the idea is that the 5 point belt with hold you in tight as the roof caves in on your poor head.... Have a local shop bend you up a hoop for a bar... SUPER EASY...

LP



I've never seen a car rolled at an autocross event, and obviously you're going to want a full cage for track racing or rally.

I've also seen a shitload of cars on their roofs that didn't have a roof collapse. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif

The funniest argument you usually hear from the anti-harness bar crowd is that in the event of a roll over they want to be able to "lean down" so that they're below the level the roof crushes too. I'm assuming they have super human strength to pull that off as the car tumbles. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif

for a weekend autoX'er, a harness bar and some harnesses make the shitty seats and abhorrent seatbelts our cars come with actually workable.

 

[belize1334]

There was a video on here about a year ago of a 2.5rs that rolls on a track and after everything comes to rest, the roof collapses down about 6 inches. If the guy that was in there had been in a 5point harness, it would have kept his torsoe from shifting at that point and his neck would surely have broken. That's why you don't want a harness w/o a cage. And I have heard of cars flipping at autox. All it takes is a compromised section of tarmack or an unexpected transition from grass to asphalt or something like that to catch the edge of a sliding wheel. It's uncommon but it can happen.

 

[Larry Parker]

I was at a autocross at waterford hills road course... It was at a race track, but you only got one lap at a time... A neon rolled and the roof was flat from the
bottom of the wind screen to the top of the rear window... that guy had sock seats and belts... He was fine... Harness bars are NOT good news... Also I really dont think a 4 point hoop will fold over unless you are driving flat out and have a big roll! this is around 60-80 mph

click

click

be safe!!
LP

 

[slugsgomoo]

someone ought to post the picture of the gvr4 rolled over completely on its roof and no collapse. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/idea.gif

tiny lightweight tin can != giant metal tank

honestly, it "could" happen, but realistically, if your b-pillars collapse anyway, how the hell do you expect the harness bar to do jack sh*t?

Any time an un-caged car rolls, whether the seatbelts work or not, it's luck to come out uninjured if you have a roof collapse.

People die all the time in rollovers with regular belts from head & spine trauma, because guess what, unless the planets are aligned, you can't effect where you are going to be in the car when it's rolling, and you won't be able to just "lean down" below the door sills anyway (though i'd pay $100 to whoever could).

Obviously i have less experience on the racing side than you do Larry, but I deal with the fire service every day from a training side and we just got done with a vehicle extrication series. You're either lucky or fucked, so i wouldn't worry about it.

I drove like 7500 miles with a harness bar, it worked great, and I never rolled the car like a dumbass, which is pretty much what you have to be to roll on the street. Track is another issue, but if you're on a track you should have a cage anyway.

That neon is the first roll i've ever seen in an autox. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif

 

Safety Devices makes a very good weld/bolt in cage for our galants(non sunroof).
Got mine here about 5 years ago


Stable Energies
175 Passaic Street
Garfield
NJ 07026-1317

 

Are bolt in cages legal for anything like scca racing or anything like that? You can't use any bolts for anything cage related in sanctioned drag racing except for swing outs.

 

[Gordian79]

Harness in a car without at least a 6 pt roll is bad news.Harness bars will cause more injuries then prevent.espcially for your rear passengers.those bolt in cages will probably not be legal to race in any type of motorsports.

 

Quote:
Harness in a car without at least a 6 pt roll is bad news.Harness bars will cause more injuries then prevent.espcially for your rear passengers.those bolt in cages will probably not be legal to race in any type of motorsports.



Any cage/harness bar will cause injury to a rear passenger. I don't know what person in there right mind would have a passenger in the rear if having a cage or harness bar setup installed. Do they even allow racing with passengers in the back of the car?

The only thing that would cause more problems with a harness bar over stock belts in a racing application would be that there is no hoop even though if you are racing in stock leathers your probably submarining up to 4" in your seat anyways and it wont matter either way.

Otherwise anyone who has a clue at what they are doing with designing a harness bar would set it up in the same location the cross bar in cages is mandated to achieve the same safety measurements and spinal compression will not be a factor.

 

[Gordian79]

Im just saying if you were to put a passenger in the rear for whatever reason.cruise night or something like that.Whats the reason people get the harness bars?because they cant get a cage done?you honestly think people with harness bars dont put passengers in the back?.another thing if you really do need to run a harness youll have be running 11.49 or quicker and youll need a roll bar.so harness bar = waste of time!

 

[turbowop]

Quote:
Harness in a car without at least a 6 pt roll is bad news.Harness bars will cause more injuries then prevent.espcially for your rear passengers.those bolt in cages will probably not be legal to race in any type of motorsports.



If the car is involved in a wreck so bad that the roof is crushed down in such a way as to hit your head, then yes a harness bar can be bad. That could also be a bad thing with stock seats and belts. Otherwise, you should be fine. Chances of such a wreck are fairly slim. Anybody remember the pics of that riced out gvr4 that had flipped over after running into a building at high speeds? No crushing at all. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif Obviously, a 6point bar would be ideal in such a situation. Hopefully I don't flip my car at a high rate of speed anytime soon. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hsugh.gif

Quote:
another thing if you really do need to run a harness youll have be running 11.49 or quicker and youll need a roll bar.so harness bar = waste of time!



I run harnesses because one of the mounting points for the stock seatbelts went away when I installed my Sparco seats. For now, the harness bar works.

 

[Gordian79]

I know itll be pretty hard to crush the GVR4 roof but you never know.whats the reason for you having a harness if you dont really need it yet.do you carry passengers in the back?

 

[turbowop]

Like I already said, I installed harnesses because when I put in the Sparcos, there was no more place to click in the lap belt since that part of the stock belts was attached to the stock seat. I don't think I need to justify the seats, as anybody who has sat in aftermarket seats knows how worth it they are, so harnesses was the trade-off.

I don't really carry passengers in the back, so that point is moot.

 

[cheekychimp]

To be honest there are a lot of things that create 'potential' danger. Big brake kits if they mess up the original brake balancing of a vehicle can make braking distances longer than stock or worse make the vehicle hard to control.

Suspension mods if done badly are probably quite likely to initiate a loss of control or a rollover.

Putting HIDs in non-projector housings can blind other road users due to poor light diffusion.

I'm sure other members can chip in with a whole load of "no nos" that we all do.

I put a bolt in 4-point cage in my car. As Curtis stated I bought a set of harness bar ends from Harry and tied them into the bar at the B-Pillar to make it an unconventional 6-point setup. I did it for rigidity, not safety. I will carry rear seat passengers but personally I feel the cage offers them more protection than danger. I had Curtis pick me up real high density cladding which will be further covered with a neoprene cover.

If a rear passenger is strapped in, he/she should not hit a centre hoop. If he/she is not, front seat passengers watch out because in most accidents like this serious head injuries are caused by the rear seat passengers "head butting" the driver or front seat passenger resulting in massive brain trauma or a broken neck. The bars running back to behind the seat might be an issue for side head impacts, but again with a properly padded bar I have real difficulty believing that a head impact with the ground (through a broken window) or with the solid C-Pillar cladding or steel (where interior trim has been removed to save weight) is going to cause significantly lesser injuries.

I also don't race when I carry passengers. I know you cannot account for everything and accidents still happen, but that's just the point. I saw an accident where a car flipped into a building site. It did a full 360 and landed on it's wheels. Three of the four people inside survived with minor injuries. The fourth (a 17 year old girl) was struck in the head by a piece of angle iron that came through the side window. It was a freak accident but with so much road furniture around, in a serious crash survival is a lottery in my opinion.

I don't mean to discredit those advising on safety issues or proclaim that a bolt in cage is "safe" for motorsport racing. But I think the point should also be made that if you build a real multipoint cage in a car, welded, reinforced and attached to the chassis at all the correct points, you 'can' effectively 'disable' or limit the extent of collapse of the crumple zones of a car. Whilst that may be good for you it won't be good for the mother and baby in the car you hit. So whilst it may be true that bolt in cages aren't safe, it could also be argued that fully caged cars should never be driven on the street either.

 

[Gordian79]

Ive been drag racing for 20years and safety was one of the most important things i learned.bolt in cages get loose and in most tracks you wont be able to race.apparently the gvr4 all by itself isnt too safe of a car.insurance for gvr4 is $780 for 6 months liability.Evo 8 $460 for 6 months full coverage with all the bells and whistles(tow,rental,glass...etc).

 

[cheekychimp]

I think in all honesty you've hit the nail on the head there. If you race I'd say your prime consideration is safety. My bolt in cage/bar is actually welded in. I can't really see the point of bolt in over weld in unless you intend to frequently remove the cage/bar which might possibly be a consideration for someone wanting to install the bar to race and remove it for street use. Of course that only works if regualtions allow it and as you have stated it seems over there that that is unlikely.

Edit: As for insurance, I think that's a lottery. Here I just paid $320-USD for 12 months liability. I couldn't get a deal like that on an EVO. I think a lot depends on how the companies assess it. EVOs are targets for theft here and more are involved in accidents so premiums are high. It would be interesting to know WHY the VR4 is more expensive to insure over there. I can only imagine that parts are rare and the cost of repairs might be higher? Or are they grouped with DSMs so that you have a lot of 'boy racers' who can't afford EVOs crashing them and getting them blacklisted?

 

[turbowop]

Quote:
apparently the gvr4 all by itself isnt too safe of a car.insurance for gvr4 is $780 for 6 months liability.Evo 8 $460 for 6 months full coverage with all the bells and whistles(tow,rental,glass...etc).




Where the hell did you get those insurance figures? Those are WAY off from everything I've ever seen. I pay $600/6months for both my gvr4 *and* my Toyota 4x4 together, both full coverage with towing, rental, etc. Quotes for me show an Evo as being a higher cost to insure. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

 

[Gordian79]

Progressive i argued with the guy over the phone if he was sure that,that was the price.I gave him all my info to make sure it was 100% accurate and he said that was the price for the evo.I live in nyc so i cant compare your rates to mine.when i got the quote for the evo i was puzzled to say the least.he said it might have to do with safety stuff.

 

[CP]

It's pretty easy to f*** up when building a weld-in cage from a safety standpoint too. Belt geometry is paramount, as is proper bracing, how it's attached to the car, tube thickness compared to vehicle weight, etc.

 

[number3]

Digit
Quote:
Are bolt in cages legal for anything like scca racing or anything like that? You can't use any bolts for anything cage related in sanctioned drag racing except for swing outs.



Click for fact Quote:
2008 NHRA Rulebook, General Regulations 4:10 ROLL BARS: All roll bars must be within 6" of the rear, or side, of the driver's head, extend in height at least 3" above the driver's helmet with driver in normal driving position (this is next to impossible in a Galant VR4 BTW) and be at least as wide as the driver's shoulders or within 1" of the driver's door. Roll bar must be adequately supported or cross-braced to prevent forward or lateral collapse. Rear braces must be of the same diameter and wall thickness as the roll bar and intersect the roll bar at a point not more than 5" from the top of the roll bar. Crossbar and rear braces must be welded to main hoop. Side-bar must be included on driver's side and must pass the driver at a point midway between the shoulder and elbow. Swing-out sidebar permitted. All roll bars must have in their construction a cross bar for seat bracing and as the shoulder harness attachment point. Cross bar must be installed no more than 4" below, and not above, the driver's shoulders or to the side bar. All vehicles with OEM frame must have roll bar welded or bolted to frame; installation of frame connectors on unibody cars does not constitute a frame; therefore it is not necessary to have the roll bar attached to the frame. Unibody cars with stock floor and firewall (wheeltubs permitted) may attach roll bar with 6-inch x 6-inch x 0.125-inch (1/8") steel plates on top and bottom of floor bolted together with at least four 3/8-inch (0.375") diameter bolts and nuts, or weld main hoop to rocker sill area with 0.125-inch (1/8") reinforcing plates, with plates welded completely. All 4130 chromoly tube welding must be done by approved TIG heliarc process; mild steel welding must be done by approved MIG wire feed or approved TIG heliarc process. Welding must be free of slag and porosity. Any grinding of welds prohibited.