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Re: Evo X turbos...


tsidrift1
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 984871 posted 04/13/11 09:18 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
There is a guy on the dsmlink forums who has an evo 8 turbo on his 1g. He got a megan tubular mani, cut the flange off, had it rewelded 180* to get the turbo in the right direction. He then retained the evo o2 housing and used an evo 8 downpipe that was modifed.

click
click
click


Edited by tsidrift1 (04/13/11 09:19 PM)

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 984886 posted 04/13/11 09:54 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting sargeek1975:

Or just get an alternator from a Saturn.



I get; I do. I see the point being made.......but 'all' those supporting mods are now becoming a norm. I don't expect to see a 1G, 2G or Evo be 'fast' unless it has cams, injectors, plugs, exhaust, intake, wideband, fuel pump and a tune. Without those now 'basic' mods you're holding yourself back. And on anything other than an Evo (usdm) you better be getting an fmic.

But.........it's because of all those supporting mods and what they are, who manufactured them, who installed them, what they're doing.......that makes the minor differences in the turbos themselves be almost meaningless.


Sure. Take ONE single car with all those mods and tune it on each of the different turbos and I'll completely agree you'll see differences in spooling, max hp and where the power is.

But three different gvr4's with three different turbos (of those I listed); but one with FP2's, small front mount, stock exhaust mani and down pipe.....the other with BC101's with a huge front mount, FP mani........ third with HKS cams 264/272........you my point here.

Those differences in the builds will be the ultimate determining factor; you can't lay it all on the turbo. That's all I'm trying to say.




No you are right, and if you go over to EvoM.net you'll see that getting 400 hp out of an EVO IX or EVO X turbo isn't going to happen without all those supporting mods that have become the norm. You will need all of those mods on either car to make 400 hp.

To my knowledge only two people on VR4.org have made 400 hp on an EVO III 16G and they didn't have budget setups or cheap $50 second hand turbos with excessive shaft play.

The point I was trying to make was that the revshift manifold at $800 is not particularly expensive compared to the cost of a similar DSM tubular manifold manufactured from the same materials. So in all honesty, if you are shooting for 400 hp on either turbo, I wouldn't expect an EVO III setup to be considerably cheaper!



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RedTwo
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 984971 posted 04/14/11 04:21 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I imagine the nozzle area of the exhaust housing (there is a rough correlation to A/R) is a great restriction on getting that high HP output from the essentially identical compressor wheels (Other than reversing direction of the fins, the 16G6 wheels are pretty much the same).

14b 6cm^2 ~ 0.41 A/R
Evo 3 7cm^2 ~ 0.49 A/R
Evo 4 9cm^2 ~ 0.65 A/R
Evo 5 10.5cm^2 ~ 0.77 A/R
Evo 10 12cm^2 ~ 0.89 A/R

A 7cm^2 orifice is less than 10mm dia, or 0.0000000001" (ok, I just guessed at that )

Here's an Evo 8 fitted with a factory 16G6 and then an Evo 9 16G6C turbo. I don't know if it's a GSR, MR or RS turbo so the nozzle area could be 9.8 or 10.5 for the 8.

Somewhere between 326 and 340 wheel HP is around 400 crank HP. So pretty decent numbers there either way.

Figure 4 on page 4 of this pdf shows a comparison of the Evo X 152G6 and Evo IX MR 155G6C compressor wheels. Interesting to note they actually decreased the vertical profile which provides the 'optimally shaped turbocharger compressor wheel'

edit: my bad, exhaust not compressor housing you nong!


Edited by RedTwo (04/14/11 08:53 PM)

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RedTwo
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 985291 posted 04/15/11 03:36 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Apparently Mazda has been using twin scroll since the late 80's - the RX7 series 4 was single scroll and the series 5 twin scroll.
This is purportedly a Mazda test from around 1980 comparing a single vs twin scroll housing of the same turbo (unspecified) on the same engine (unspecified)



Figure 13, when it's actually road tested is pretty astounding.

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 985324 posted 04/15/11 10:32 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Where the heck did you find that little piece of history? If that really is a test performed by Mazda, then who can argue? The theory makes sense, and apparently there are significant (and real) results. Thanks for the links



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BrandonEchols
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 985392 posted 04/15/11 02:24 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
So looking at the thread with the TS 20G on that Evo...it doesn't look like he's using the Evo X compressor housing.
Anyone know what housing that is?
Did he replace the entire CHRA, or just the compressor and turbine wheels with 20G units?
I'm thinking we might be able to use something like this to hook it up?
Just get a stock VIII or IX Manifold, and have an adaptor made that has the 8/9 flange on the mani side, and the reverse flange on the turbo side.
Thoughts?



What is hellaflush?

Mitsubishi = Must Involve Turbos, Suck Unless Boost Is Seriously High Inside

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 985470 posted 04/15/11 07:23 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
yes something like that would work if you had the evo 9 exhaust manifold and wanted to run a twinscroll t3 turbo which is a good way to save some money but you still would have to buy two wastegates and do plumbin =g for them as the exo 10 turbo you can have a twinscroll and use the internal wastegate to control it which is were you would savew some money on just having the dsm flange welded to the manifold and customize the evo 10 o2 housing like the dude sis on the thread

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 985739 posted 04/16/11 06:59 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I wasn't suggesting using that *EXACT* piece, that was just a good visual example of the concept I'm envisioning.
The one I'm thinking would be Evo 8/9-to-X, not Evo-to-T3.

I imagine if you had an internally gated twin scroll T3, you could use it with that adaptor without external wastegates, and just cap the flanges for the wastegates with something.



What is hellaflush?

Mitsubishi = Must Involve Turbos, Suck Unless Boost Is Seriously High Inside

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BrandonEchols
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 986259 posted 04/18/11 08:42 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Well, just bought an Evo X turbo and an Evo VIII exhaust manifold.
Once they get here I'll be looking further into the setup.
I was just reading and found out the stock 15G on the X has hit over 400hp.
So I might just get it set up that way and then switch to the 20G setup later.
Who knows. I just think this has potential for making really good power and keeping the lag down.
I also have the Holset though, so it depends on how things go with the controller for that thing, but I imagine the Holset is quite a bit heavier than Evo X unit.



What is hellaflush?

Mitsubishi = Must Involve Turbos, Suck Unless Boost Is Seriously High Inside

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 986277 posted 04/18/11 09:44 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Take care when comparing data from rotaries to piston motors.

They do things totally different. I had a crash course in this a few weeks ago with a local buddy. I've known how they work for years but had no idea to the level these guys can take them. He's building a 71 corolla with a 13b, yes he's Puerto Rican its in there culture I guess maybe just in there genetic make up but he's on the way to having one of the fastest import within 1000 miles of here, his buddy set the track record back last summer with a .8 60ft.

video one
click me video 2

As you can see there's injector holes everywhere and there all going to be huge including the primaries on the engine itself. I think when all 10 are added together along with the large meth nozzles he'll be spraying around 16K cc/minute with a mechanical pump. I still have to weld on the peripheral port covers and the runners are already cut open for them but not in the pictures below.







My buddies did his 25.2 chassis if this crazy stuff interests you
click on the orange 71 in the 2nd picture


Oh and he's a GI so this is what your tax dollars can do when properly applied.



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RedTwo
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 986374 posted 04/19/11 05:26 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Yeah I kinda forgot, rotaries do tend to spool big turbos very quickly

I don't think a Evo 8 TD05HR manifold with Evo X turbo is really going to fix things, it will push the downpipe closer to the alternator due to the turbo flange being closer to #2 cylinder.
Just need to find someone to make a run of mirrored cast TD05HR manifolds

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BrandonEchols
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 987418 posted 04/22/11 02:12 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting RedTwo:

I don't think a Evo 8 TD05HR manifold with Evo X turbo is really going to fix things, it will push the downpipe closer to the alternator due to the turbo flange being closer to #2 cylinder.
Just need to find someone to make a run of mirrored cast TD05HR manifolds




I realize that, but if nothing else I've got a divided manifold to work from.
My alt is getting relocated with the Jay Racing kit anyway, hopefully that'll help me out.
But I definitely agree on getting someone (FP, ERL, etc.) to do some divided, cast manifolds for us with the Evo X flange.
That would be ideal.



What is hellaflush?

Mitsubishi = Must Involve Turbos, Suck Unless Boost Is Seriously High Inside

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tsitalon1
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1035616 posted 11/23/11 10:15 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting BrandonEchols:

Well, just bought an Evo X turbo and an Evo VIII exhaust manifold.
Once they get here I'll be looking further into the setup.
I was just reading and found out the stock 15G on the X has hit over 400hp.
So I might just get it set up that way and then switch to the 20G setup later.
Who knows. I just think this has potential for making really good power and keeping the lag down.
I also have the Holset though, so it depends on how things go with the controller for that thing, but I imagine the Holset is quite a bit heavier than Evo X unit.




I'm reviving this old thread as I have just sold my Evo X and still have the original turbo in GREAT shape. Any resonable way to use this on the GVR4? Output/spool similiar to Evo316g? Any manifolds out there to bolt it up?

Plan was to sell the Evo X turbo and buy a Evo316g? but would use the X turbo just the same if output/spool is similiar.....

I still have my Evo X turbo and O2 housing, would be great to utilize these and get the benefits of twin scroll.

Please keep i nmind I have no cost in obtaining turbo/o2 housing, so this might be more feasible than most could do....I assume I would just need a manifold solution.


Edited by tsitalon1 (11/23/11 10:26 AM)

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1035631 posted 11/23/11 11:41 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
click

Cheaper than it used to be. Get a cheap EVO down pipe off eBay and you would have probably the least work to do to make this work.



Getting old sucks ... but it sure beats the alternative !!!

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tsitalon1
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1035662 posted 11/23/11 01:26 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Cheeky, I am not sure that would be worth it. For the cost of the manifold you linked to I could buy a Evo316g.

Is there no other manifold solution?

Would an Evo9 manifold work?

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BrandonEchols
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1035682 posted 11/23/11 03:33 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I've actually been slowly and silently pursuing this avenue.

I have been in touch with a fabricator who has built me an adaptor flange for the Evo 8-9 manifold, that enables you to bolt up the Evo 10 turbo - now granted, this still puts everything very much on the drivers side of the car, and would require you to relocate the alternator (likely the Jay Racing kit would be perfect) but it's what I have so far.

I wanted a cast twin scroll manifold for daily street use as there have been too many people who spend $700+ on a tubular mani only to have them crack from the heat cycling that daily driving sees - and cast manifolds for this application just aren't offered.

I should have the adaptor flange soon (was supposed to be mailed late last week) and I'll mock it up right quick and take some photos so you guys have an idea what's going on.

Another option would be to find someone (maybe a board member, or friend of one) who could do some CAD work on this, and make an offset flange that would still use the OEM Evo 8-9 manifold and move the turbo toward the passenger side of the car. You'd probably need someone with a 5-axis machine from the little I know...but it could be done.



What is hellaflush?

Mitsubishi = Must Involve Turbos, Suck Unless Boost Is Seriously High Inside


Edited by BrandonEchols (11/23/11 04:09 PM)

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tsitalon1
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1035711 posted 11/23/11 07:13 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Thanks for your information.

I am not convinced that this level of effort is worth the output versus an evo316g. I guess I will stick to my original plan to sell off the X turbo and buy an evo316g. Thanks again guys.

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cheekychimp Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1035721 posted 11/23/11 08:09 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting tsitalon1:

Cheeky, I am not sure that would be worth it. For the cost of the manifold you linked to I could buy a Evo316g.

Is there no other manifold solution?

Would an Evo9 manifold work?




Exactly why I haven't done it yet, but I do think the twin scroll would offer slightly better drivability than the EVOIII 16G and in order to bring the car into the 21st century and give it something that it really lacks over the later EVOs I still personally think the fabrication costs would be worth it given that once it was done you would have access to a huge number of twin scroll turbos from later model cars. It is the lack of that second hand market in turbos over here that is really keeping me from doing this. I don't want to be paying 1000 bucks or more a turbo if I have to buy new.

Brandon has got me thinking though. I would need to check again but I think the HKS cast manifolds are divided almost to the turbo flange. I wonder if an adapter of sorts and a little welding could get me in the ball park. If only someone did a small frame T4 twin scroll BB turbo for the price of an EVOIII16G.



Getting old sucks ... but it sure beats the alternative !!!

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BrandonEchols
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1035786 posted 11/24/11 04:31 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting tsitalon1:

Thanks for your information.

I am not convinced that this level of effort is worth the output versus an evo316g. I guess I will stick to my original plan to sell off the X turbo and buy an evo316g. Thanks again guys.




Honestly, I thought about that as well... but I really believe that it will be worth the payoff once it's done.
The adaptor was cheap (< $150), and now they can probably be made cheaper, since some of that was design time.

If there was an adaptor that was offset like I imagine, or even if we could get a company like FP or ERL to make us a cast manifold just like what have now - but in a twin scroll design - that would open up a lot of options for the entire early 4G63 market to do updates...I know everyone just wants to get a 16g and be done, but there's a reason they went to twin scroll designs.

Personally the sound of a twin scroll 20G with mostly OEM manifold and turbo parts is appealing to me, but I'd rather have 350-400 very useable HP with a great powerband than 500+ that only really comes on above 5k revs.

Very dependent on what kind of driving you do, and how unique you want your car to be.

Here are a couple pics to give an idea of the CAD mockup he did for the adaptor flange.
Once it's in I'll take pics and get more info out there - this could be a great alternative for the people who want a bit more power than the 16g, but also want to maintain great all-around drivability.







What is hellaflush?

Mitsubishi = Must Involve Turbos, Suck Unless Boost Is Seriously High Inside


Edited by BrandonEchols (11/24/11 04:33 AM)

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RedTwo
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1035980 posted 11/25/11 12:59 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
They already make and sell those, or at least something very similar.


This was on Ebay in June, but I can't find it any more.

Edit: Found it, it's listed as Evo 8 to 10 $99 USD + shipping


Edited by RedTwo (11/25/11 01:01 AM)

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BrandonEchols
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1036014 posted 11/25/11 07:27 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
That's the same fellow I had make mine, and actually that's the one I bought originally thinking it would work - that actually flips the Evo 8-9 turbo 180* opposite, so you could potentially use it with our car.
Evo 10 flipped the flange the other way (left-to-right, instead of front-to-back), so I had him make the adjustments and I'm waiting on the new version to show up.



What is hellaflush?

Mitsubishi = Must Involve Turbos, Suck Unless Boost Is Seriously High Inside


Edited by BrandonEchols (11/25/11 07:33 AM)

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1036077 posted 11/25/11 06:36 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
A 20g in an undivided housing already spools to quick. I have mine setup for 32 psi. If i floor the car below 4000 rpms it surges horribly. Not just audibly, the boost gauge goes crazy and the car bucks badly. If it spooled any faster, it would break the shaft.

Although it would be nice to have a twin scroll setup to run the fp turbos that come in the evo housings.


Quoting BrandonEchols:

Quoting tsitalon1:



.

Personally the sound of a twin scroll 20G with mostly OEM manifold and turbo parts is appealing to me, but I'd rather have 350-400 very useable HP with a great powerband than 500+ that only really comes on above 5k revs.









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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1036112 posted 11/25/11 10:56 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Odd...everyone I've talked to has said the opposite.
You could go 25g, basically anytime you can have twin scroll that's a good thing, IMO



What is hellaflush?

Mitsubishi = Must Involve Turbos, Suck Unless Boost Is Seriously High Inside

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1036118 posted 11/25/11 11:58 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Do you guys understand that if you just get an adapter that the twinscroll is not active any more? You need to keep the exhaust separate all the way from the valve to the turbine, not let it get mixed up in the factory collector. You NEED to have a custom manifold made. Otherwise you will just have a twinscroll turbo without the added spool and top end benefit and then you will bitch about how it wasn't worth the effort because it doesn't spool that much faster.

Quoting curtis:


As you can see there's injector holes everywhere and there all going to be huge including the primaries on the engine itself. I think when all 10 are added together along with the large meth nozzles he'll be spraying around 16K cc/minute with a mechanical pump. I still have to weld on the peripheral port covers and the runners are already cut open for them but not in the pictures below.









I only see the two factory secondary injector bosses in the outer runners. The two bosses for the primary runners are on the middle iron.


EDIT: Oops I lied I now see the 4 additional injectors on the upper intake. Does the REW use the plastic injector diffusers like the TII? And if so are you using them on the upper runners? Fuel hates to take the curves it has to in those dang rotaries.


Edited by CutlassJim (11/26/11 03:07 AM)

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BrandonEchols
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1036137 posted 11/26/11 05:16 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
I'm talking about using the factory Evo 8-9 manifold and the 10 turbo, with an adaptor, that - as you can plainly see - keeps everything divided...I don't see where the twinscroll aspect becomes invalid...?



What is hellaflush?

Mitsubishi = Must Involve Turbos, Suck Unless Boost Is Seriously High Inside

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