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Evo X turbos...


Whoodoo
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 983911 posted 04/11/11 12:47 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
...now point the right way. Anyone think about putting one on your car? It would take a custom manifold and O2 housing, but people have made those before.



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cheekychimp Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 983925 posted 04/11/11 01:02 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Yeah, I thought about it. Got quite close to actually doing it. There is a fair bit of resistance to the idea on here. Most people will state that the EVO X turbos produce no more power than an EVO III 16G for an insane amount of fabrication to make them fit. I still think the twin scroll is a major upgrade though plus once you have a manifold done all the aftermarket EVO X turbo upgrades become bolt on. I think an EVO X FP Green with meth injection produced some pretty impressive numbers not just in terms of overall horsepower but in terms of power/torque under the curve.

The whole issue with this for me is that the EVO III 16G is constantly heralded as the best bolt on upgrade for this car but I find it something of a coincidence that it was the last evolution of the 4g63 turbos that matched our engine configuration. I am pretty sure if Mitsubishi hadn't twisted the 4g63 180 degrees in the EVO IV that we would all be singing the praises of EVO VIII and EVO IX 'bolt on turbos'.

Is it cost effective? ... I would have to say after crunching the numbers, no probably not. Would it be a damn neat setup that fabricated correctly just once would offer a near lifetime of bolt on turbo upgrades that offered access to 20 years of evolution in turbo technology ... hell yeah.

Edit for some inspiration on fitting Evo 8 through 10 turbos on an old school 4G63 look at these links :-

Evo 8 turbo on a 1st Gen

Evo 8 turbo on a 2nd Gen

Revshift 2G to Evo 8 Manifold

Evo 10 turbo (with 20G wheel) on a DSM



Getting old sucks ... but it sure beats the alternative !!!


Edited by cheekychimp (04/11/11 01:20 PM)

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alansupra94
Excuse the retarded question.
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 983929 posted 04/11/11 01:14 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
To be honest, I think it might be better for our cars to run this because it would keep that downpipe heat away from the alternator. I actually might be doing this when I go Holset just because I will need more space more than likely. Keep in mind I haven't looked physically at it so don't quote me.

If you have a welder that does work for free, I would say go for it. If you don't, just be sure to plan so you don't have to pay for a million revisions.



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tsidrift1
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 983981 posted 04/11/11 02:53 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I have thought of running an evo 8 turbo on the gvr4. They can be picked up for like $250 in good shape with lines. I cant seem to find a good evo 3 16g close to that. From what I have read, the easiest thing to do is get a tubular manifold. Cut the turbo flange off, swap it 180* and then run a evo downpipe with a modified flange at the cat/testpipe.

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524of1000
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 984095 posted 04/11/11 10:03 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
^^^^^^^
Broxma and I were going to throw an Evo8 turbo on mine. It's a it more complicated than that. A LOT of custom welding is required. It is do-able and if you have everything already I say go for it.



America was raised on speed. Hot, Nasty, Bad ass speed. - Eleanore Roosevelt, 1936

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beaner
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 984130 posted 04/11/11 11:14 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Considering what's needed, it makes you wonder if other OEM turbos would be better for the same $$ ballpark. Either way you're doing custom everything.

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desant78
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 984140 posted 04/11/11 11:36 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
wow this seems like one hell of a summer project....back in the day apparently for the 3000 vr4's it was like GOLD to find exhaust manifolds that allowed for use of a 16g. i bet the same things is gonna happen with this soon...hopefully



i wanna go fast.

1991 GVR4 1662/2000 (parts car)
1992 GVR4 995/1000 (JSB)
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BrandonEchols
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 984160 posted 04/12/11 12:16 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
OMG...the twin scroll 20G is sects.
I want.
Might have to seriously consider that route instead of the Holset VGT.



What is hellaflush?

Mitsubishi = Must Involve Turbos, Suck Unless Boost Is Seriously High Inside

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RedTwo
Rangi Kiwi


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 984196 posted 04/12/11 02:45 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting cheekychimp:

The whole issue with this for me is that the EVO III 16G is constantly heralded as the best bolt on upgrade for this car but I find it something of a coincidence that it was the last evolution of the 4g63 turbos that matched our engine configuration. I am pretty sure if Mitsubishi hadn't twisted the 4g63 180 degrees in the EVO IV that we would all be singing the praises of EVO VIII and EVO IX 'bolt on turbos'.





I have this crazy idea that the CRHA of the H and HR turbos must have very, very similar dimensions. It seems crazy that they would keep the compressor wheel the same (mirrored) and then completely redesign the rest of the turbo just to turn it around 180*.
I just to need to pull some strings and get Jeremy's shop unearthquaked to find out

I can't remember which website I found it on but they were claiming unofficial 'measured' flow rates of the TD05HR-16G6-10.5T and 16G6C-10.5T from the Evo 8 MR and 9 GSR as 580 and 610 CFM respectively (around 41 and 43 lb/min), So a touch more than the 'published' flow of the TD05H-16G6-7 from the Evo 3.

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cheekychimp Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 984318 posted 04/12/11 02:42 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
To be honest that makes a lot of sense, particularly given Mitsubishi's track record for changing things in increments and the fact that the FQ400 models proved fairly conclusively that stepping up from the very well sized 16G gave more power at the expense of extra turbo lag. I really don't see Mitsubishi going more than marginally bigger with these turbos in a production model all the time that they retain the 2.0 litre, 8.8:1 CR formula they have used for the last 8 years.

By the way, I take it that that Revshift 2G manifold would still bolt up to a 1G head, but is it going to fit in the rather more cramped VR4 engine bay?



Getting old sucks ... but it sure beats the alternative !!!


Edited by cheekychimp (04/12/11 02:44 PM)

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sargeek1975
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 984392 posted 04/12/11 04:47 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Help me out here (cause I'm not the brightest bulb when it comes to memorizing cfm's for turbo's, sizes, yadda yadda); but how much more/better does an Evo VIII/IX/X flow over an Evo III 16G? I know they each are a little different from one another; but I 'assumed' they were all fairly close. Unless you're going to meth or something outrageous; I would think that each of these turbo's can do 400whp all day long with the proper mods. Want more than that? Prepare to spend some money. (yes; I've seen cars push more with these turbo's, but 400 is a good spot to say anyone can make it there with those turbos without getting ridiculous)


So why go through the hassle of of getting something that's not a bolt on, will cost you MORE money to mount; but still 'stock'? When your end result will be fairly close to the Evo III 16G?

'Cool' factor?



Am I missing something?


Edited by sargeek1975 (04/12/11 04:49 PM)

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belize1334
well bread and nobly conceived
1334/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 984439 posted 04/12/11 06:02 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I've seen dynos of the stock evox turbo making 400whp at 3500rpm. That's very impressive IMHO. Twin scroll is awesome and I want it...

How hard would it be to adapt the manifold from the X to fit a DSM head? Images I've seen show a rectangular bolt pattern instead of our staggered bolts. But if the port spacing matches I could imagine an adapter plate that would either bolt in or possibly be welded to the X manifold...

er... found a thread.
click
Looks like the runner spacing is off a bit. Custom manifold and downpipe to make it work "right". Still, seems like one of the big fab shops could offer a kit...



Roger B. Scott
'91 Belize Green


Edited by belize1334 (04/12/11 06:07 PM)

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dsmless
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 984449 posted 04/12/11 06:32 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
the write up on the exo x setup in a cramped evo 2 engine bay is a great article, and for a street car a twin scroll turbo is a very good option, fast spool and not as hard on your tranny, will look into this as a option for my 89 turbo colt project

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BrandonEchols
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 984496 posted 04/12/11 07:37 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I'm so interested in the Twin scroll 20G now, it's all I've been thinking about since I saw that thread.
Is there a cast manifold that would let us fit the X housing and take advantage of the twin scroll?
I really don't want to run a tubular manifold on the street.
If the VIII/XI manifold would bolt on to our head, and the flange is the same for the X turbo...this could be a fairly easy street swap setup.
Does anyone know if these bolt together properly?
How would the WG be handled? From all I've read, you need dual wastegates for a twin scroll setup?



What is hellaflush?

Mitsubishi = Must Involve Turbos, Suck Unless Boost Is Seriously High Inside

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raptorWagon
less than one year to my birthday
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 984502 posted 04/12/11 08:01 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
^ That's my only question, will the 8/9 manifold bolt up to early generation 4g63s? It would just save time and money, but not a big deal if I need a custom manifold. I'll be using a 8/9 turbo on my '76 Galant, the turbo already face the proper way for me.



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RedTwo
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 984535 posted 04/12/11 09:00 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Yes the TD05HR manifolds are a direct bolt up.

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raptorWagon
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 984536 posted 04/12/11 09:04 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Awesome ! Just wasn't sure since the intake manifold isn't a direct bolt up.



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BrandonEchols
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 984538 posted 04/12/11 09:10 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting RedTwo:

Yes the TD05HR manifolds are a direct bolt up.




Direct bolt up to our 1G head, or direct bolt up to the Evo X turbo flange...or both?



What is hellaflush?

Mitsubishi = Must Involve Turbos, Suck Unless Boost Is Seriously High Inside

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raptorWagon
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 984543 posted 04/12/11 09:15 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Evo 8/9 exhaust manifold bolts up to our head.



92 Galant VR-4 362/1000
76 Galant Coupe
79 Galant Sigma Wagon
88 Fiji Blue Starion
94 Montero SR

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dsmless
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 984558 posted 04/12/11 09:53 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
yeah but the thing is that a evo x turbo will not bolt onto the dsm head as the 8/9 manifold does notice the diffrence in flanges, thtas why the dude on the last link cut and welded a dsm flange onto the evo x manifold
click

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cheekychimp Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 984607 posted 04/13/11 12:50 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting sargeek1975:

Help me out here (cause I'm not the brightest bulb when it comes to memorizing cfm's for turbo's, sizes, yadda yadda); but how much more/better does an Evo VIII/IX/X flow over an Evo III 16G? I know they each are a little different from one another; but I 'assumed' they were all fairly close. Unless you're going to meth or something outrageous; I would think that each of these turbo's can do 400whp all day long with the proper mods. Want more than that? Prepare to spend some money. (yes; I've seen cars push more with these turbo's, but 400 is a good spot to say anyone can make it there with those turbos without getting ridiculous)


So why go through the hassle of of getting something that's not a bolt on, will cost you MORE money to mount; but still 'stock'? When your end result will be fairly close to the Evo III 16G?

'Cool' factor?

Am I missing something?




I think to really evaluate this mod you need to look at the wider picture. Both turbos are clearly 400 hp capable but we are talking about more than peak power output here. Mitsubishi clearly has (or had) a huge R&D budget and I don't think they made changes in their turbo design without good reason. The fact that they continue to use the newer twin scroll design should be evidence in itself before you even look at dyno graphs and the increased performance of each model they produce.

Secondly although people have produced 400 hp on an EVO III turbo proving it can be done, 400 hp is not the norm and is usually associated with a significant number of supporting mods. Now obviously for either turbo if you are increasing boost pressure and power you will need supporting fuel mods BUT you still have to consider the cost of everything else most guys use to get 400 hp out of an EVO III like cams, exhaust manifold and O2 housing, higher compression pistons, rods as well in some cases. This issue comes down to how many similar mods would be required to get 400 hp out of an EVO X turbo on our cars.

The last thing that still makes me want to consider this setup is that parts for our cars are becoming increasingly rare and whilst I am not sure we are in any real danger yet I think availability of the EVO III 16G will eventually diminish but that at that time the later EVO stuff being much newer will still be in circulation.

Alan also made a small, but I believe very relevant point above in that running this setup would move the downpipe away from the alternator which we all know could significantly help extend the alternators life. That revshift manifold is $800. I reckon you could get a downpipe done for maybe $300 and pick up a used low mileage IX/VIII stock turbo for $250-$300 and an O2 housing for $100. So about $1500 all in. It's not cheap but not that extravagant either given what we spend on our cars.

At the drag strip it may not give much of an advantage but on the street in terms of spool, increased response and low end power and torque I think it would be worth it. I've never had a 16G setup so I've decided to go that route first to cut my teeth but on the daily driver I am convinced that in the future if EVO III turbos get too expensive or too difficult to find, this is the obvious affordable progression for a 350-400 hp street car.

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Nabeel
Member +


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 984633 posted 04/13/11 06:39 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Regarding the alternator problem. just make shield for it. I just make one using toilet tissue holder. this looks funny. Bot it is doing the job & it looks nice. I just drill it and use the oil gauge bolt to hold it.


click



91 VR4
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sargeek1975
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 984689 posted 04/13/11 11:24 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Or just get an alternator from a Saturn.



I get; I do. I see the point being made.......but 'all' those supporting mods are now becoming a norm. I don't expect to see a 1G, 2G or Evo be 'fast' unless it has cams, injectors, plugs, exhaust, intake, wideband, fuel pump and a tune. Without those now 'basic' mods you're holding yourself back. And on anything other than an Evo (usdm) you better be getting an fmic.

But.........it's because of all those supporting mods and what they are, who manufactured them, who installed them, what they're doing.......that makes the minor differences in the turbos themselves be almost meaningless.


Sure. Take ONE single car with all those mods and tune it on each of the different turbos and I'll completely agree you'll see differences in spooling, max hp and where the power is.

But three different gvr4's with three different turbos (of those I listed); but one with FP2's, small front mount, stock exhaust mani and down pipe.....the other with BC101's with a huge front mount, FP mani........ third with HKS cams 264/272........you my point here.

Those differences in the builds will be the ultimate determining factor; you can't lay it all on the turbo. That's all I'm trying to say.

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belize1334
well bread and nobly conceived
1334/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 984703 posted 04/13/11 12:39 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
It should be noted that our manifolds place the collector to the passenger side of center while the viii/ix manifolds place it to the drivers side of center. So, to avoid interference with the alternator / ps pump we'd need to offset the turbo collector from the manifold flange. Another issue is the design of the twin-scroll passages. A little google-image search shows that the viii design places the drivers-side passage farther forward. The X has the opposite offset. So, there's no way around an adapter flange. It would probably have to be at least 2" of tube length and would need to map the twin outlet from the viii manifold to the twin inlet on the X turbo and would also have to offset the turbo by about 3" to the passenger side - at least.



Roger B. Scott
'91 Belize Green


Edited by belize1334 (04/13/11 12:43 PM)

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Whoodoo
buff guys = good time but my dream is to fondle 1051
62/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 984705 posted 04/13/11 12:41 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
I agree. It isn't all about what turbo you have, but who really knows the best way to modify a car? My goal eventually is to have as much area underneath my torque curve as possible. This means I will need to have a turbo that will spool fast and flow up top. The kinds of technology that make a turbo do that don't come on any old turbo, so if I want that goal, then an evo3 16g just wont cut the mustard.



62/2k

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