Post your FMIC and FMIC Info

[Bimmubishi]

Harry is right about the bends. There is pressure drop when air is forced around tight corners.

I refer anyone to corky bell's book.

Also, the guy that made Katie's core doesn't make F1 cores. F1 cars aren't turbo anymore but it is superb work.


Here's a definitive link to probably put closure to the argument.

http://www.bankspower.com/tech_howairflows.cfm

Edit:
I just spoke with the senior engineer here at work. He said that bends cause turbulence and eddys slowing the air flow, which then has to re-accelerate upon exit of the corner.

Airflow is at almost zero near the wall of a tube and actually at zero at the wall so the theoretical versus actual flow is really 100%to 80% given the flow versus distance from the tube wall.

(end edit)

 

I have the DSM Performance FMIC. 11x22x3 top to bottom flow(1280cfm) sperco core, 2.25" inlet, 2.5" outlet. I have a 60trim garrett with a 20g style outlet. my IC piping is 2.5" from the turbo to the TB. Very short route, 4 bends total. I will take some pics asap. A lot of cutting was needed to fit this in there.

~John

 

[Whistler]

quote:Originally posted by Doug Thomas:
Any pics with the bumper cover on the car? Doug, give me a few days and I will post some pictures with the bumper on. Just sold my digital camera and the new one should be here at the end of the week.

quote:Originally posted by Clay:
whistler, what core is that? did you buy it with endtanks on it, or did you put some on?Clay, the core is a Spearco 2-216 from IRC with standard TEL end tanks.

 

Two 99' A4 1.8t coolers. 70 bucks a peice (new) and 25 dollars for welding.

 

Following Bimmubishi's link.

"This diagram indicates laminar flow through a conduit. The length of the arrows represents the relative speed of the fluid in the conduit. The fastest flow is at the very center of the conduit, and the slowest flow is adjacent to the conduit walls. If the conduit is round, you can picture this as concentric “layers” of flow, gradually increasing in speed from the outside toward the center. The thicker the fluid (high density), the greater the variation in speed of the layers will be. If the density of the fluid is high enough, tumbling between the layers will occur, significantly reducing flow through the conduit. "

So cooler air thats more dense, is more likely to fall victum to poor IC pipe interior surfaces. So maybe hone em?

So what would be less efficent for airflow:

- Less bends while traveling over the deadly exhaust manifold?
- Or two real nasty (but smooth) bends at the Turbo outlet and the drivers side inlet for the IC?

It seems to me that a setup like Harry's, assuming that his lower IC pipe goes over the ex mani (I can't see it from the members rides) would be optimal. As long as lots of "Thermal management" was used. Such as Heat reflective cool wrap on the lower (upper lower) pipe and maybe an additional heat sheild for the mani.

Every seen that road race setup on the Mofugas site. Bet that spooled nice.

 

whistler, what core is that? did you buy it with endtanks on it, or did you put some on?

how much hp does the extreme kit support? does it hurt any that its only 2.75 inches thick ?

 

[curtis]

smoother the better on the inside because the air acually tumbles that is in direct contact with the sides of the pipe. Air also flow with a parabolic distribution like the picture above thats whay you never want to instantly step down or up in pipe size. Corky bells novel on turbo design states that it should have a 15 degree taper. I tryed this on my system refer to my pipe that is pictured in the above post. It works. Now for bends "Fuild power theory and application" by sullivan (isbn 0-13-755588-1)has a lot of good info on this stuff had this class last year about this time and remember a lenghty discussion I had with the PHD type (did his thesis on fuild dynamics) that was giving the class on IC pipe design. A 90 is better than running a lot of slight bends or 45's because it cause turbulence in the system. On a hugh set up in a factory or at 3 mile island it is a problem but in a small intercooler system like a car the static losses due to friction is very small. The friction factor for drawn steel tubing 2.5 in dia is .000002. I can't really figure everyones system because everyone has different IC's, turbos, pipes etc. and at differnt turbo speeds this all changes) but heres the formula for head loss due to friction.
hf= friction factor x (lenght of pipe/Dia.in ft)(velocity of fuild flow/2 x gravitational constant which is 32.2 ft/sec squared). And don't let anyone tell you that they know what happens during turbulent flow or when it happens it just happens and it is bad.

on the net look up Darcy-Weisbach and Hagen-Poiseuille formulas also Reynolds number.

 

Sorry, but your car is not going to be any faster or make any more power with the shorter piping. Like I said before they're Galants and DSM following the stock route piping and they are as fast as the cars running the shorter routing. If your running an internal gated 16G on a Galant you have no choice but to go over the manifold. No matter what you do if you run over or under the manifold your going to have some type of 90-degree bend and it doesn’t make a difference. It’s matter of preference as far I’m concerned your car is not going to perform any differential either way.

 

quote:Originally posted by number3:
Here is the breakdown of my system (to eliminate the guess work). First please note this is not to say "my way" is right OR wrong but just one of many ways to do it.


I have 6 bends in my IC system verses the 16 bends in the stock routing.

90 out of the turbo (under manifold)
90 out of the engine bay
90 into the FMIC
slightly less than 90 up and out of the FMIC and into the engine bay
45 to get pipe to TB level

Large sweeping 90 in the TB



Harry That is definitely one large 90-degree bend for sure. The bend almost hits the shock tower. Kind of long if your concern with short route piping if you ask me.

 

quote: That is definitely one large 90-degree bend for sure. The bend almost hits the shock tower. Kind of long if your concern with short route piping if you ask me.I think that's the point. The longer and more gentle the bend the less flow restriction. The extra length of straight pipe is inconsequential but sharp bends are not. FWIW I have a similar setup on my car.

 

quote:Originally posted by Pivvay:
quote: That is definitely one large 90-degree bend for sure. The bend almost hits the shock tower. Kind of long if your concern with short route piping if you ask me.I think that's the point. The longer and more gentle the bend the less flow restriction. The extra length of straight pipe is inconsequential but sharp bends are not. FWIW I have a similar setup on my car. Do you really think in the real world that's going to make an ounce of difference? Because it's not.

 

quote:Originally posted by Doug Thomas:
Like I said before they're Galants and DSM following the stock route piping and they are as fast as the cars running the shorter routing. That wouldn't have anything to do with tuning would it? Two 4363's with identical modifications could run times a world apart. How fast a car is at the track has very little to do with the specific power output of that vehicle in comparison to another.

Do you think the extra effort that went into designing this system was a total waste?
- Pic

The car may not make much more peak power, but when that peak power comes in 1 or 2k sooner than someone with a "It dosent matter how long it is" routed system. Well, you see where I am going with this.

quote: Do you really think in the real world that's going to make an ounce of difference? Because it's not. Then why do you bother to modify your car at all. Everything you do may not seem so significant, individually. But when you look at the big picture, it all adds up. I did'nt not put the best flowing air filter on my car because it would only yield a theoretical 2hp difference. I chose it because I want the best for my car and it's performance. To each his own, but it seems strange to only perform modifications that yield "x" amount of power because anything less isn't worth it.

"Whatever is worth doing at all, is worth doing well." - Philip Dormer Stanhope, Earl of Chesterfield (1694–1773)

 

[Bimmubishi]

Doug's being stubborn

 

Is it possible to get something to travel over a greater distance using the same force? Or am I way off in my thinking here?

 

quoteo you really think in the real world that's going to make an ounce of difference? Because it's not Well regardless of making a real difference in the real world, I'd still do it again.

1) Less bends is cheaper.
2) Less bends does make a real world difference. It just may not be noticable

Doug, Why don't you run some IC piping up and down your car a few times and see how it goes? Lol. But you are right that in terms of "short route" vs traditional, any gains are pretty small compared to driver skill, tuning, etc etc. Run what's easiest to *get on* your car. Because the intercooler sitting on your garage shelf is definitely slower

 

quote:Originally posted by Pivvay:
quoteo you really think in the real world that's going to make an ounce of difference? Because it's not Well regardless of making a real difference in the real world, I'd still do it again.

1) Less bends is cheaper.
2) Less bends does make a real world difference. It just may not be noticable

Doug, Why don't you run some IC piping up and down your car a few times and see how it goes? Lol. But you are right that in terms of "short route" vs traditional, any gains are pretty small compared to driver skill, tuning, etc etc. Run what's easiest to *get on* your car. Because the intercooler sitting on your garage shelf is definitely slower

My point is don’t knock yourself out worrying about the pipe routing. I would be more concerned about the tuning of the car to take advantage of a nice FMIC set-up with a good intercooler core. My intercooler is right on my car, but I do have bigger core sitting on the shelf and I’m trying to figure out if it’s worth changing from a street core to race core.

 

quote:Originally posted by Doug Thomas:
My point is don’t knock yourself out worrying about the pipe routing. I can go along with that from a temporary stand point. And I have. Right now I have a mangled mix of S4 and Stock bends for piping. But I have no intentions of leaving it that way.

Try this: Put a boost gauge at your turbo outlet and another at your intake or regular boost source (should be intake). So you can see the amount of boost "work" your turbo is doing, compared to the amount of boost you are "seeing". Of course a car can make the same amount of power with longer pipes and bends, than one with less. But how long will his turbo last doing 20psi worth of work for a car using only 16psi? That's 20psi worth of extra heat, that's going to turn your artificial aspirator in to a hair dryer. And I will continue to knock myself out to get my boost even 500rpm sooner. My car may not make any more peak power, but I will get there sooner. Which means I don't have to tear up another tranny trying to make up for lag.

Since this is a Message Board, where people come to learn how to modify their GVR4's (reguardless whether or not you subscribe to the particular belief) it's best that more than one option is provided for the eager mind reading this mess. Then they can decide what's worth knocking themselves out over.

PS: If you had the time it would be worth while to check the boost right after the IC too. This goes along with what Doug is saying. But I've seen worse pressure drop from poor piping than from bad cores.

 

Take a look at the AMS EVO III intercooler pipe routing. The car has the longest piping I’ve every seen on a DSM/GVR4. The piping goes from the throttle body to passenger side fender then into the intercooler. The driver’s side piping goes from the compressor housing over the exhaust manifold, over the driver side headlight, down the fender then into the intercooler. The intercooler is not all that big either. Matter fact their guys on the forum that have bigger intercoolers that. As you can see the pipe routing makes no difference because the car runs 9.7@147. Would the car run any faster with shorter piping?

 

[Bimmubishi]

Yes. It would. All other variables being equal, yes.

You can't argue with fluid dynamics.

 

quote:Originally posted by Bimmubishi:
Yes. It would. All other variables being equal, yes.

You can't argue with fluid dynamics. Well someone better tell AMS