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Discuss...1G Head with Cyclone mani or 2G Head with Evo I/M

JSchleim18

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Just expanding my mind a little bit. What do you think would be a better idea?

2G Head with smaller ports and an Evo 3 intake manifold or

1G Head with a properly working Cyclone intake manifold?

Evo 3 16G to 50 trim max turbo setup.
 

belize1334

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I've been thinking about how much work would need to be done to do a 2G head with cyclone mani. Obviously the ports don't match, but the head could be mildly ported and the runners could be filled in a little with some kind of hard-setting epoxy.

My own experience with the cyclone manifold has been very positive. Spool threshold was about 150rpm lower with my s16g and I get a nice little increase in torque off boost.
 

1qkfwd

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2G head with the evo3 mani would probably be the best choice. Ive done alot of homework on this. I am in the process of building a 2G head and gonna run a mildly ported RVR intake. Its the same as the EVO3 except a smaller tb bore. If you where to run the cyclone you would need to port it out for better top end. Last year when I was doing all my research, I ran across proof the cyclone fell off over a stock 1G mani. The dyno chart did show a good pickup of bottom end torque. I ran across a post that there were a few people that made upwards of 500 hp with the evo3 mani. Who knows on that one but im convinced that the 2G head is far more superior than the 1G head. The 1G head is just over sized and overhyped. And if the 1G head was better why are some of the long time DSMers like kiggly and curt brown switching over to the 2G heads and having better results.
 

cheekychimp

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I've been giving this a lot of thought recently! I already have an EVO III intake manifold and putting a full EVO III head setup on a 6-bolt block would be pretty easy.

There are a lot of things to consider here and it is hard to know where to start without making it a muddled mess but I will try. The verdict on which of the two heads is better is still out and to be honest I don't think there will ever be a definitive conclusion because every time people TRY to compare the two, there are always other variables involved.

The EVO III came with 9.0:1 pistons the 2Gs with 8.5:1, that in itself is going to affect off boost driveability and turbo spool. You cannot realistically change to either head without changing the intake manifold, so you then get drawn into debates as to how much influence the manifold has on the figures subsequently produced. Then there are big guns out there making big numbers on BOTH heads which means neither is conclusively better than the other but this comparison is also contaminated by the fact that very few big guns run unported heads and my personal opinion is that once you have ported both heads the gap between them decreases anyway.

Some very respected members have stated that everyone going from a 2G head to a 1G head has seen power gains. Again I very much doubt that when people changed heads that was the ONLY change that they made. I think the argument that the 1G head flows more is likely true but if you can make 600+ hp on a 2G head that's kind of irrelevant especially for the OP looking to run a 16G/50 trim sized turbo.

I think we can assume that Mitsubishi have spent a fair amount of money in R&D on the Evolutions. I therefore very much doubt that you will be disappointed with an EVO III intake manifold, 2G head and a EVO III exhaust manifold and O2 housing. It makes sense that these parts were designed to be used in conjunction with each other. Now I do think that the combination was also specifically designed to be used with a high compression piston in the absence of the Cyclone manifold to assist off boost throttle response and low down torque BUT it is also very clear that you can run a lot more boost on these engines than the factory originally intended so in mid range and top end, I am sure you can make up for the lower compression with more boost and perhaps even get better results, but I think you might find low end a little weak on a 7.8:1 compression ratio.

Now, the Cyclone is proven to work. There is absolutely no doubt about that. 30-40 ft/lbs increase in torque is nothing to be laughed at and for the loss of 1 CFM of flow, I'm frankly surprised that everyone with a 1G head on a street car isn't using one. But given the amount of research that went into that manifold, I doubt Mitsubishi would have just dropped the project on the 2G/EVO heads if they didn't think it was redundant technology with the higher velocity ports and higher compression ratio. I do however think that IF it could be done, the combination of a Cyclone manifold on a 2G head with lower compression pistons and more boost could make for a very potent and very effective setup. The issue here is that there simply is not enough room to blend the runners into the smaller ports of the 2G head. This means either porting out the smaller 2G ports to match the Cyclone (which defeats the whole point of the 2G head) or as has been suggested, using epoxy to reduce the outlet of the Cyclone manifold. The problem with the latter is that I really don't think Mitsubishi just said "Yeah, let's just try a 3/8 diameter for the primary and a 1/2 inch for the secondaries and blend them about three quarters of the way up ... yeah that looks about right!" If you start f***ing with the ratios between the primaries and secondaries not to mention blocking or obstructing the merge point of the two, I think the effectiveness of the manifold could be drastically reduced.

One thing I am working on at the moment (all be it rather slowly) is the AMG Cyclone manifold. The plenum is considerably larger than a 1G or 2G manifold which means that it WILL outflow both and theoretically should not drop off in the top end. What SPECIFICALLY interests me about the AMG Cyclone however is that the runners are supposed to be dual and INDEPENDENT not primary and secondary runners that merge. That means that since when the butterflies are opened the manifold changes runners, you no longer have to pair short and long runners on the same port. I picked up the plenum half of an AMG cyclone on Yahoo Japan for $1.00-USD the other day. Yes $1. It is actually useless without the runner section, BUT it has given me the courage to look at modifying it without too much fear of messing up a rather rare manifold.

My idea is that if I can build 2G sized runners that link the large runners in the AMG plenum to the corresponding ports on the 2G head by the shortest possible route, a good top end potential should be created. But if I then fabricate tubular runners to join the smaller runners in the AMG plenum and pair them with ports further away (similar to the way a tubular exhaust manifold is constructed) and feed them into the short runners at a 45 degree angle from above I can gain even more gains in torque by creating a significantly longer 'primary'. At this stage I have absolutely no idea on ratios or lengths or if it is even possible but the AMG Cyclone seems far more suited for this task, IF as I have been led to believe, the runners are run independent of each other.

Paul.
 

Paul,
Points well taken.

I've been seriously considering installing a jdm cyclone manifold on my car. As you stated, the torque gained over the power loss in negligable. 40-50 ft/lb gain with a loss of maybe 1% hp should be a no brainer for everyone's daily driver. The off throttle response on my completely stock 7:8.1 motor could use some pick me up. The cyclone manifolds are more available than the Evo 3 manifolds & are a little cheaper too. Years ago I had a nice polised cyclone manifold that I sold. I'm going to get another one done as I strongly believe this will greately help with my off throttly response.
 

JSchleim18

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Good info so far. I'm lovin it /McDonald's slogan

I've had a Cyclone, sold it. Had an Evo 3, sold it. Now I've got a Hyundai Sonata head (2G ports, bigger holes for headstuds already, 43cc combustion chamber) and I just bought an RVR intake mani with the coil pack.

I know the easiest route would be to hook up a Cyclone manifold. I like the gains people are seeing with it.

I completely agree with the points being made about the design of the Evo intake manifold as well. So much money went into designing these cars for rally where more time is spent in lower RPMs/midrange. For them to carry the intake manifold style over from Evo 1 through Evo 9 really says A LOT.

I have a 9.0:1 motor as well. This car is getting set up for HPDE events.

I spoke with a very well respected head builder last night and he told me a 2G/Sonata head with an Evo mani would be the way to go.
 

cheekychimp

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Another thing that should be given careful consideration here is choice of cams. I know that a lot of people quote the power gains made when switching to a 1G head as being attributable to the larger 1G cams rather than the head itself. People are coming around to the idea now that the fact that the 2G head has smaller ports does not stop it from flowing well due to higher velocity. In order to take maximum advantage of this however, camshaft choice is critical to gain the best overlap and duration.
 
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JSchleim18

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I have HKS 264's. Was looking into Kelford's 264in/260ex combo. They have a great duration and a pretty high lift to help in the higher RPM range. It's just above their 258 rally cams.
 

cheekychimp

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In fact I think someone summed the whole situation up very well in another thread when they said you simply cannot compare just the heads and have to take into account the relevant combination of parts designed to work with each other and compare those sets against each other.

In this case, I think both setups work well as the JDM intake manifold makes a world of difference over the stock USDM 1G manifold on lower compression pistons and should theoretically work even better on higher compression pistons.
 

cheekychimp

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Quoting JSchleim18:
I have HKS 264's. Was looking into Kelford's 264in/260ex combo. They have a great duration and a pretty high lift to help in the higher RPM range. It's just above their 258 rally cams.



To be honest it sounds like a very potent street setup on something like a EVO III 16G. I'd be very interested to find out how it runs.
 

JSchleim18

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That's the only problem when trying to compare these setups. They only work with their respective heads. I think the plenum is larger on the 1G Intake manifold and also has longer runners in comparison to an Evo intake manifold. The best comparison we can do is:

Combo 1: 1G Head, 1G Stock intake manifold, 1G throttle body
Combo 2: 1G Head, Cyclone intake manifold, 1G throttle body
Combo 3: 2G Head, Evo intake manifold, 1G throttle body (bolts right on)

All would have an HKS 264 cam setup and an Evo 16G turbo so the only limiting power factor would be the intake manifolds.

I *think* the numbers would be relatively close down low but the Evo intake manifold would take the crown up top.

My guess:
(1 is best, 3 is worst)
Combo 1: Power 1, torque 3, powerband 3
Combo 2: Power 3, torque 1, powerband 2
Combo 3: Power 2, torque 1, powerband 1

Mind you this is "street car" ratings.

Of course real time data *could* tell us otherwise
 
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beaner

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b'ham, mi
Quoting 1qkfwd:
The 1G head is just over sized and overhyped. And if the 1G head was better why are some of the long time DSMers like kiggly and curt brown switching over to the 2G heads and having better results.


There's more material to remove on a 2g head than a 1g head. In stock form I think the 1g head is superior to the 2g head. When comparing ported heads, other way around. Back 5+ years ago it seemed generally only the fast guys were 1g guys. The only main difference I could think of was the head. *shrug*

As for a cyclone manifold on a 2g head, I would think the only way to properly go about this without some amazing port work would be with a phenolic spacer of some sort, about 1-2" thick so the transition could be smooth. Using epoxy is insane. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif I know with porting heads there's so many 'rules' like leave the floor alone and all that. If you're doing drastic changes to the flange right before the head, you might as well be doing some weird sh*t with a dremel in the head while you're at it, ya know? I'd just expect negative results.

I've been using a cyclone manifold on my street 1g for a couple years now. It's the bees knees, it's just all about setting it up correctly.
 

Rausch

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Quote:

Using epoxy is insane.

Actually, it's not /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

There are companies that make 'epoxies' specifically for that purpose. It' s common on built Japanese motorcycle engines, among others. The ports from the factory are a bit bigger than ideal, and they fill the gaps and reshape the ports a bit smaller to ramp up velocities.

It's actually quite common.

:)) fixed)
 
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cheekychimp

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For reference this is the difference between the Standard and AMG Cyclones (AMG at the bottom)

 

cheekychimp

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Alex,

Nice to see you are still around. Does your experience with the 2G head suggest it is stiffer even after being ported, or is it just because there is more material there BEFORE it is ported?
 

Bimmubishi

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I've only got empirical data based on racing with these engines for a while. The 2g is a better, stiffer casting the same way that the 4-8 casting is better. The 2g head is supposed to be less prone to headgasket problems. This probably doesn't matter for a street car. I tested heads and manifolds a while back but then discovered that my procedure was flawed because my turbo was failing.

I'm using an Evo manifold with an Evo head at the moment. We are all of the opinion that on an OEM intake/head/ex setup with a larger turbo that the exhaust manifold is the power limiter. I'll get back to that in the spring I guess.
 

curtis

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I'll add to this since I've ported a sh*t ton of both. The 2G head is cast from a better grade of aluminum. You can take a new cutter to both and you can't tell the difference but if the cutters are on there way to the metal recycler bucket they seem to piss you off alot more trying to cut a 2G compared to a 1G. Worn out they will barely cut on a 2G compaired to them cutting ok or dying and the aluminum melting it if your not using enough wax or trans fluid to lube them. I was told once by Chris the alloy of each because he found out from a smart guy with access to the data. He needed to know because when you weld up the exhaust side on the chamber surface to keep it from melting and blowing out under extreme pressure a normal fill rod doesn't always hold up because the filler rod is way softer than the material your welding but different alloy's can be special ordered. Next time I talk to him I'll ask and add back to this.


I think thats probably why the 2G is better to prevent warping more than thickness because anyone thats ever cut a mitsubishi head knows its the luck of the draw on the castings some time the top to bottom casting alignment is 1/8 inch off and others have super thin roofs on them. Others I've done I've cut to raise the roof and they have plenty of material left around the valve spring seat and others I've cut through and turned it into a paper weight. Problem is mass production and quality control of mass production instead of a QC dept that looks at Hp gains and perfection.

It mainly comes down to what you want the car to do. Some people like that noise, instant boost surge and shift where others like the feel of a V8 and never really feeling the turbo come in and spin the sh*t up and it still be pulling at above 10K, a 2g head on a big turbo will never do that. You can only push so much air through a garden hose.


Now as for porting a 2g to a 1g port its alot of work. Its way easier to cut the bottoms out of the runners and weld in a shaped plate of 1/8 inch to the bottom to make a long transition from the last bend from big to small at a 5 or 8 degree angle than try to port out the head and end up porting into the wrong area and losing VE of the head port. Rapid change from big to small makes a hell of alot of turbulance and to cut the head correctly you at the short turn area coming all the way out. If you a have bridgeport or large knee mill thats fine but with a cutter and die grinder its a 2 day operation. I have pictures some where of a 2G I did this way years ago and refuse to do another one.
 

belize1334

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So you think it's feasible to cut the flange off of a cyclone, cut the floor out of the last runner section and then weld in a shaped piece and a 2g flange to mate to a 2G head?
 

curtis

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yes feasible but alot of work. I built a 2g intake this summer for a board member that I welded a 1G flange to and ported out to match a 1G head. Car is an NA and he was hoping to benefit from the added VE then a bigger plenum for top end. If you look close at my nasty work bench the 1G cyclone flange I used is laying there as well as the 2G I just cut off.



Proof it can be done.

 
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