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Engine build update Bad news

boostedinaz

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 20, 2006
Messages
4,085
Location
Scottsdale, AZ
Quoting DR1665:
This thread makes me sad.

1. What was once among the cleanest GVR4s around has been passed around and fucked by something like a half-dozen irresponsible, knuckle-dragging fucktards.
2. 1101 finally gets back into the hands of someone who just wants to drive it, and it shits the bed.
3. New owner gets bombarded with every Frankenstein clusterfuck contingency plan surefire way to "do it right."

How about this. I have a 99% stock 6-bolt collecting dust on an engine stand at 51st Ave and Thunderbird. It's got less than 10,000 miles on a fresh - STOCK - rebuild. Honed cylinders, fresh rings and bearings. Head cleaned up and serviced prior to being re-installed with a Mitsubishi MLS head gasket. New valve seals, intake/exhaust ports gasket matched and lightly cleaned up. Does not leak a drop of oil. Does not overheat. Only reason it's out is because some retard ran a red light and I caught him in the B-pillar doing about 45mph. Car is being stripped/prepped for a roll cage.

f*** all this noise. You've got a $2500 budget? I'll trade you straight up - your boat-anchor engine & $1000 for mine. Put a grand in my hand, pick up the engine in the morning, drive 1101 that night with $1500 in your pocket to play with.

Just throwing another idea out there.



This is a great deal and I'll 110% vouche for Brian as being a super stand up guy.
 

Quoting cheekychimp:

Can either of you give me a little more information on this head as I don't believe we get that particular vehicle here in Asia. Is this head essentially a 1G or 2G head and how much more compression would it give? I am wondering what would happen if you were to use this head in conjunction with a 9.0 or 9.5 CR. Would it end up too high?



The head is a 1G head, with 1G runners and 1G CAS provisions. As mitsuturbo stated, the combustion chamber is 4cc smaller, it also has the same size valves and it accepts the 1G external components (intake, v/c, t-stat housing). The engine designation would be a 4G67, so you could look at any vehicle so equipped in your market. Rumor has it that JDM 4G61T's also used this head. The USDM 4G61T's got the small runner version I believe. Someone way better at math could easily figure out the difference in CR with the right equation, but I'd suspect that it would add 5 tenths at the very most.
 
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Taken from www.carcraft.com
Quote:
You'd think that the pistons listed for a 10.5:1 compression ratio would actually give you 10.5:1. But it's usually not that simple. Perhaps that's why so many car crafters have a foggy or incomplete understanding of compression ratios. To clear things up, this story will define what compression ratio is, let you know how to alter it, and show you how to calculate it for any engine.

Throughout the story we'll use the example of a typical 350 Chevy (4.000-inch bore, 3.48-inch stroke) with a 0.015-inch deck height, a head gasket with a 4.100 gasket bore and 0.038-inch compressed thickness, 76cc heads, and pistons with 4.5cc valve reliefs--and you'll see what these numbers mean as we go.

What Is Compression Ratio?

Remember what happens during the compression stroke of the four-stroke cycle: Both the intake and exhaust valves are closed so no air can escape, and the piston moves upward from bottom dead center (BDC) to top dead center (TDC) so that the air/fuel mixture in the cylinder is compressed into the combustion chamber. Compression ratio is the relationship of cylinder volume (or displacement) with the piston at BDC to cylinder volume with the piston at TDC. If the volume of the cylinder with the piston at BDC is 10 times greater than the volume of the combustion area with the piston at TDC, then 10 units of volume get squeezed into 1 unit of space, and the compression ratio is 10.0:1.

There are five factors that affect compression ratio: cylinder swept volume, clearance volume, piston dome or dish, head-gasket volume, and chamber volume.

Cylinder Swept Volume

The swept volume of the cylinder indicates how much air the piston displaces as it moves from BDC to TDC. Increasing the cylinder volume without making any other changes will increase the compression ratio because it enlarges the cylinder volume without increasing the combustion chamber volume. In other words, the piston will have to cram more air into the same amount of space. Cylinder volume is calculated using the bore and stroke of the engine with this formula: Cylinder volume = 0.7853982 x bore2 x stroke

On a standard 350 Chevy, the bore is 4.00 inches and the stroke is 3.48. Apply the formula, and you'll find that one cylinder is 43.730 ci (multiply this times eight cylinders and you get 349.84, which is rounded to 350 for total engine displacement).

If you overbore our sample 350 from 4.00 inches to 4.020 inches and make no other changes, the compression ratio will increase from 8.84:1 to 8.90:1 because the volume of the cylinder has increased. When overboring an engine, the percentage of gain in compression ratio decreases as you add clearance volume and increases as you remove clearance volume, as we'll describe next.

Clearance Volume

Clearance volume is determined by the distance from the cylinder block deck to the top of the piston flat (not counting any dishes or domes) when the piston is at TDC. In many engines, especially 350 Chevys found in cars, the pistons don't come all the way up to the height of the deck--they can be anywhere from 0.003 to 0.020 inch below it. This amount is known as the piston deck height, and it affects compression ratio because it affects the volume of air in the combustion area when the piston is at TDC. If the piston is farther below the deck, then clearance volume is increased and the compression ratio is reduced. If the piston is closer to the deck, clearance volume is reduced and compression ratio is increased.

Here's how to calculate the clearance volume once you know the piston deck height: Clearance volume = 0.7853982 x bore2 x deck height

In our sample 350 with a deck height of 0.015 inch (meaning the top of the piston is 0.015 inch below the deck of the block), the clearance volume is 0.188 ci.

If the deck height of our sample engine was increased to 0.020, compression would drop from 8.84:1 to 8.75:1. If the deck height of our sample engine was decreased to 0.003, compression would increase from 8.84:1 to 9.05:1.

Piston Dome

Note that clearance volume does not take into account any pop-up domes or sunken-in dishes on the head of the piston. These configurations also increase or decrease volume in the combustion chamber and affect the compression ratio. The manufacturer's catalog will list the displacement in cubic centimeters of the dishes or domes on the piston, but we've found that it's not consistent whether they express the cc's of a dish as a positive or a negative number. For the purposes of calculating compression, we prefer to view the cc's of a dish as a positive number because a dish adds volume to the cylinder (and reduces the compression ratio); a dome is a negative number because it subtracts volume from the cylinder (and increases the compression ratio).

Another confusion with piston designations is that they're listed in cubic centimeters, but we use cubic inches to calculate compression ratio. You can convert to cubic inches with this formula: Piston dome or dish in cubic inches = cc's x 0.0610237

Since our sample engine uses pistons that have 4.5cc dished valve reliefs in them, then they increase the volume of each cylinder by 0.275 ci. If we changed to pistons with a dish of 22 cc (1.34 ci) and made no other changes, then the compression ratio would drop from 8.84:1 to 7.58:1. If we used pistons with a dome of 12 cc (0.73 ci), then the compression would increase from 8.84:1 to 10.56:1.

Head-Gasket Volume

Head-gasket volume is determined by the compressed thickness of the gasket. A thicker gasket adds volume and reduces compression; a thinner gasket reduces volume and increases compression.

A gasket's compressed thickness is listed in the manufacturer's catalog and ranges from 0.051 inch to 0.015 inch. Also, the gasket bore is often larger than the engine bore; a 4.100-inch gasket is common. In our example, we assumed a head gasket with a 4.000-inch bore. Once you know the compressed thickness and gasket bore, here's how to calculate the volume that the gasket will add to the combustion area: Head-gasket volume = 0.7853982 x gasket bore2 x compressed thickness

In our example with a 0.038-inch thickness and 4.000-inch bore, the gasket adds 0.478 ci to the volume of the cylinder. If we used a thinner 0.015-inch gasket and made no other changes, the compression ratio would increase from 8.84:1 to 9.27:1.

Chamber Volume

The volume of the combustion chambers is the final factor in determining compression ratio. The larger the chamber, the more volume is added to the cylinder and the lower the compression ratio; smaller chambers reduce volume and increase the compression ratio.

For small-block Chevys, chamber sizes range from around 58 cc to 78 cc. However, the volume of the chambers can vary greatly depending on the type of heads and valves used, the amount the heads may have been milled, the number of valve jobs that have been performed, and any custom chamber grinding that has been done. Manufacturers of cylinder heads will tell you the range of sizes of the chambers in their heads, but for any used or custom-machined heads, the only way to know the size of the chambers is to have a machine shop check. Once this number is known, here's how to convert it from cubic centimeters to cubic inches: Chamber volume in inches = cc's x 0.0610237

Therefore, the 76cc chambers in our 350 have a volume of 4.638 ci. If we were to use cylinder heads with 58cc chambers and make no other changes, the compression ratio would increase from 8.84:1 to 10.72:1.

Add It Up

Once you have all the information listed above, youre ready to calculate the compression ratio of the engine youre building. First you add up the volume of the cylinder with the piston at BDC, then divide it by the volume with the piston at TDC. Heres the formula:

Compression Ration =

Cylinder vol. + clearance vol. + piston Comp. vol. + gasket vol. + chamber vol. divided by Clearance vol. + piston vol. + gasket vol. + chamber vol.

Apply this to our example of the Chevy 350 with the 3.48-inch stroke, 4.00-inch bore, 0.015-inch deck height, 0.038-inch head gasket with a 4.000-inch bore, 76cc heads, and 4.5cc dished pistons, and here’s what it looks like:

43.730 + 0.188 + 0.275 + 0.478 + 4.638 divided by 0.188 + 0.275 + 0.478 + 4.638 =8.84:1

This engine has an 8.84:1 compression ratio. When using this formula, don't forget that the displacement of domed pistons should be expressed as a negative number.

 

Hey guys im getting ready to put my motor on the enginge stand michael let me borrow and I cant seem to seperate the damn tranny its pissing me off it just moves left to right and is about a half inch away from the block but wont seperate .... Any help what am I missing /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
 

DR1665

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 19, 2005
Messages
4,642
Location
Iowa City, IA
If the bellhousing is separated from the block, it's all a matter of getting the engine and transmission far enough apart that the clutch will clear the bellhousing. You may need to re-figure how you have the engine hanging on the picker. It might just be easier to pull the engine/trans together.

As you're lifting it all out with the cherry picker, set your chains to allow the whole thing to angle downward on the transmission side. With the engine higher, the angle makes it easier to get it all clear of the sidemembers in the engine bay.
 
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mitsuturbo

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 2, 2008
Messages
3,551
Location
Near Seattle, Washington
Quoting galant1517:
Quoting cheekychimp:

Can either of you give me a little more information on this head as I don't believe we get that particular vehicle here in Asia. Is this head essentially a 1G or 2G head and how much more compression would it give? I am wondering what would happen if you were to use this head in conjunction with a 9.0 or 9.5 CR. Would it end up too high?



The head is a 1G head, with 1G runners and 1G CAS provisions. As mitsuturbo stated, the combustion chamber is 4cc smaller, with same size valves and it accepts the 1G external components(intake, v/c, t-stat housing). The engine designation would be a 4G67, so you could look at any vehicle so equipped in your market. Rumor has it that JDM 4G61T's also used this head. The USDM 4G61T's got the small runner version I believe. Someone way better at math could easily figure out the difference in CR with the right equation, but I'd suspect that it would add 5 tenths at the very most.



Well, as a point of reference, i've got Mahle pistons with a 13cc dish. CR is 8.5:1 (published)
They're also selling some with a 10cc dish now. They're listed at 9:1 CR.

3cc difference = +.5 CR difference
in stock bore, i assume
maperformance lists 1mm os pistons as being 9.2:1 rather than 9:1, which illustrates how bore can affect compression as well
 

^^^like I said, someone way better at math. I could be way off base here, but it would seem that compression increases aren't linear, that they occur on a curve. I.E; when starting with a larger dished piston, the increase is smaller. If you have a smaller dished piston, the increase is larger.
 
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Barnes

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 9, 2003
Messages
6,249
Location
Richland, WA
Compression ratio linearly increases or decreases as piston dome volume increases or decreases respectively.
Compression ratio linearly increases or decreases as piston dish volume decreases or increases respectively.

EDIT: THIS INFORMATION IS INCORRECT!
 
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Barnesmobile, I unfortunately have to say you are incorrect sir. After doing the math, here are my results.

88 / 25.4 = 3.46 (stroke)
85 / 25.4 = 3.35 (bore)

0.7853982 x (3.35 x 3.35) x 3.46 = 30.496894 (cylinder swept volume)

For simplicity, I've left piston to deck height and H/G compressed volume values at 0, because they are not variables in our equation. This leaves only combustion chamber volume and piston dish volume to take into account, which when combined will give us a net value of total combustion volume.

Remember that I'm not taking into account the piston to deck height clearance or the head gasket compressed volume, so these numbers ARE NOT ACTUAL COMPRESSION RATIO'S FOR GIVEN PISTON DISH VOLUMES.

Assuming we are working with a 47cc cylinder head, and a 13cc piston dish, we see that the total combustion volume(TCV) is 60cc.

60 x 0.0610237 = 3.6614220

(30.496894 + 3.6614220) / 3.6614220 = 9.3292486:1 CR

With a 10cc dish, TCV is 57cc.

57 x 0.0610237 = 3.4783509

(30.496894 + 3.4783509) / 3.4783509 = 9.7675438:1 CR, an increase of 0.4382952 CR.

A 7cc dish equals 54cc TCV.

54 x 0.0610237 = 3.2952798

(30.496894 + 3.2952798) / 3.2952798 = 10.254721:1 CR, an increase of 0.4871772 CR.

A 4cc dish equals 51cc TCV.

51 x 0.0610237 = 3.1122087

(30.496894 + 3.1122087) / 3.1122087 = 10.799116:1 CR, an increase of 0.544395 CR.

Clearly, with everything else being equal, simply subtracting 3cc of piston dish volume will not yield an equal increase of CR every time. As I said before, the bigger the dish, the smaller the increase. Smaller dish, greater increase.
 
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The engine is out but the damn tranny just will not seperate I guess just brute force then /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
 

Are you sure all of the bolts are out? Including the ones for the inspection cover?
 

Ian M

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 11, 2002
Messages
2,348
Location
Martinsburg,WV
There's a smaller 8mm (12mm wrench size) bolt at the back of the bellhousing that is commonly missed,make sure you got that.
 
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The cover is off and the starter is removed the tranny is off the pins large pins that stick out of the block as well .... So I dont know ? I will have a friend of mine come over and help me also im gonna post some pics just incase
 

The only thing that's left would be that the engine and tranny could be trying to fold together, causing the splines to bind in the clutch disc. Try to pull it straight off, and if you're already doing that, I'm at a loss, you could be dealing with something I've never run across.
 

Barnes

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 9, 2003
Messages
6,249
Location
Richland, WA
Quoting galant1517:
Barnesmobile, I unfortunately have to say you are incorrect sir. After doing the math, here are my results.




You're own math confirms what I said. You showed that reducing the dish volume increases compression ratio linearly. I even plotted a graph of your data. It's a linear relationship. I could even write a mathematical proof if need be.

EDIT: YEP, THIS IS WRONG TOO.
 
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DR1665

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 19, 2005
Messages
4,642
Location
Iowa City, IA
Looks pretty good, Drdamm. Can't really see where it's binding from this end, though.

Just to confirm, you can verify the transmission bellhousing is separated from the block all the way around? If that is the case, then your issue should just be one of pulling the transmission away from the engine far enough for the clutch to clear.

Good luck.
 
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