Also what is a good set of cams to look for thanks
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Muskrat
Well-known member
Boostdtalon
Well-known member
The labor when I got my head rebuilt was $220. I already had the parts I wanted installed.
mitsuturbo
Well-known member
289, on sale
That's a good deal if they're local to you. Otherwise shipping is going to put you right back up to ~325.
That's also a far cry from $200. I was just sayin' it's never as cheap as you think it's going to be. EVER.
As for cams? Kelford and GSC seem to be rated/reviewed as the best right now. I went with kelfords and got a deal on them at $525 i believe.
I keep hearing/reading to stay away from Brian Crower cams. Their pricing is appealing, but apparently that's the only appealing thing about them.
EDIT: keep in mind, when i said i've never paid less than about 350, it's likely because i WILL NOT have a head rebuilt without REPLACING the 20 year old guides. This also lends to added costs.
That's a good deal if they're local to you. Otherwise shipping is going to put you right back up to ~325.
That's also a far cry from $200. I was just sayin' it's never as cheap as you think it's going to be. EVER.
As for cams? Kelford and GSC seem to be rated/reviewed as the best right now. I went with kelfords and got a deal on them at $525 i believe.
I keep hearing/reading to stay away from Brian Crower cams. Their pricing is appealing, but apparently that's the only appealing thing about them.
EDIT: keep in mind, when i said i've never paid less than about 350, it's likely because i WILL NOT have a head rebuilt without REPLACING the 20 year old guides. This also lends to added costs.
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Muskrat
Well-known member
Quote:
289, on sale
That's a good deal if they're local to you. Otherwise shipping is going to put you right back up to ~325.
That's also a far cry from $200. I was just sayin' it's never as cheap as you think it's going to be. EVER.
EDIT: keep in mind, when i said i've never paid less than about 350, it's likely because i WILL NOT have a head rebuilt without REPLACING the 20 year old guides. This also lends to added costs.
Yes. you're right. I'm so sorry for mis-representing the cost of a stock head rebuild. And for not knowing Ross pistons were forged, It completely invalidates my entire post and I will go delete it promptly. Should I also sacrifice my first born to the speed gods to appease you? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif
Just chill out, there's no need to jump down my throat. A simple, "Hey, it's actually costs $x" Or, "Hey, Ross pistons are actually forged" would suffice.
289, on sale
That's a good deal if they're local to you. Otherwise shipping is going to put you right back up to ~325.
That's also a far cry from $200. I was just sayin' it's never as cheap as you think it's going to be. EVER.
EDIT: keep in mind, when i said i've never paid less than about 350, it's likely because i WILL NOT have a head rebuilt without REPLACING the 20 year old guides. This also lends to added costs.
Yes. you're right. I'm so sorry for mis-representing the cost of a stock head rebuild. And for not knowing Ross pistons were forged, It completely invalidates my entire post and I will go delete it promptly. Should I also sacrifice my first born to the speed gods to appease you? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif
Just chill out, there's no need to jump down my throat. A simple, "Hey, it's actually costs $x" Or, "Hey, Ross pistons are actually forged" would suffice.
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mitsuturbo
Well-known member
Quoting Muskrat:
Quote:
289, on sale
That's a good deal if they're local to you. Otherwise shipping is going to put you right back up to ~325.
That's also a far cry from $200. I was just sayin' it's never as cheap as you think it's going to be. EVER.
EDIT: keep in mind, when i said i've never paid less than about 350, it's likely because i WILL NOT have a head rebuilt without REPLACING the 20 year old guides. This also lends to added costs.
Yes. you're right. I'm so sorry for mis-representing the cost of a stock head rebuild. And for not knowing Ross pistons were forged, It completely invalidates my entire post and I will go delete it promptly. Should I also sacrifice my first born to the speed gods to appease you? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif
Just chill out, there's no need to jump down my throat. A simple, "Hey, it's actually costs $x" Or, "Hey, Ross pistons are actually forged" would suffice.
Sorry man. I'm just pissy because my engine getting dropped into the car is on hold for one measly f***ing Alternator Relocate Kit.
I've got some $1600 wrapped up in just my cylinder head, and the mother f***er hasn't even had the chance to fire yet! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bawling.gif
Quote:
289, on sale
That's a good deal if they're local to you. Otherwise shipping is going to put you right back up to ~325.
That's also a far cry from $200. I was just sayin' it's never as cheap as you think it's going to be. EVER.
EDIT: keep in mind, when i said i've never paid less than about 350, it's likely because i WILL NOT have a head rebuilt without REPLACING the 20 year old guides. This also lends to added costs.
Yes. you're right. I'm so sorry for mis-representing the cost of a stock head rebuild. And for not knowing Ross pistons were forged, It completely invalidates my entire post and I will go delete it promptly. Should I also sacrifice my first born to the speed gods to appease you? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif
Just chill out, there's no need to jump down my throat. A simple, "Hey, it's actually costs $x" Or, "Hey, Ross pistons are actually forged" would suffice.
Sorry man. I'm just pissy because my engine getting dropped into the car is on hold for one measly f***ing Alternator Relocate Kit.
I've got some $1600 wrapped up in just my cylinder head, and the mother f***er hasn't even had the chance to fire yet! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bawling.gif
Muskrat
Well-known member
Np, man. That's a shitty situation. You just got me all defensive. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Just looking at your signature line: Shouldn't it be Determined Sudomasochistic Mechanic ?
boostedinaz
Well-known member
Quoting Drdamm21:
Guy this is all great info my will be the 300.00 frankenstein rods on 2g pistons as well as a full head build going with prev advice for only a 3 angle valve job I might go with custom cams but this will depend on the cost for the total build as im not risk fouling this up. Then I will need to find someone here in arizona who can help me hone and measure for the new pistons ... I can do the rest .. I will get help from michael tuning with my small 16 using dsmlink lite and if it feels good I dont care about the numbers ... Thanks to all /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
Are you not getting it fully machined and just honing and dropping in new STD size pistons? IMO, that's not going to add to the longevity of the motor and not worth going through all this hassle. In fact once the bore is measured you may find out that it needs to be machined anyway, why not just start with that and KNOW that everything is in spec.
Guy this is all great info my will be the 300.00 frankenstein rods on 2g pistons as well as a full head build going with prev advice for only a 3 angle valve job I might go with custom cams but this will depend on the cost for the total build as im not risk fouling this up. Then I will need to find someone here in arizona who can help me hone and measure for the new pistons ... I can do the rest .. I will get help from michael tuning with my small 16 using dsmlink lite and if it feels good I dont care about the numbers ... Thanks to all /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
Are you not getting it fully machined and just honing and dropping in new STD size pistons? IMO, that's not going to add to the longevity of the motor and not worth going through all this hassle. In fact once the bore is measured you may find out that it needs to be machined anyway, why not just start with that and KNOW that everything is in spec.
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mitsuturbo
Well-known member
You can do it on a budget, but please.. at least do it right.
There is a right way, and many wrong ways to "rebuild" an engine.
Haul the block off to the machine shop, and have them bore/hone it to .50mm over (.020"). Have them measure your new pistons beforehand so that they can set PTW clearance right.
If they give you sh*t about align honing, magnafluxing, squaring the deck, decking the block... you can just say no. Save your money if you know your block is good. Run a stock style head gasket and call it good.
If you do not do it right the first time, you WILL be doing it a 2nd time.
There is a right way, and many wrong ways to "rebuild" an engine.
Haul the block off to the machine shop, and have them bore/hone it to .50mm over (.020"). Have them measure your new pistons beforehand so that they can set PTW clearance right.
If they give you sh*t about align honing, magnafluxing, squaring the deck, decking the block... you can just say no. Save your money if you know your block is good. Run a stock style head gasket and call it good.
If you do not do it right the first time, you WILL be doing it a 2nd time.
broxma
Well-known member
Quoting mitsuturbo:
If you know somewhere that will do a full rebuild of a 4g63 head for $200, you'd better let us all in on your secret. I'm sure whoever is doing it would love to have more business.
I get mine done for 183.00 here in San Antonio. That's 16 pressed valve guides, 16 seats, 16 clean valves, decked and tanked. I assemble myself however, but the shop individually numbers each valve with the appropriate spot on the head. I press the seals myself obviously.
I also don't think it is over complicating things to build the motor right, once. The issue is a matter of cost benefit analysis. Look at the typical price for an Eagle/Wiseco piston rod combo on the Ebayz, 750.00ish. A little competitive bargaining can probably drop that closer to 700. So a 1G rod/2G piston combo is upwards of 400.00 either bought outright or DIY, the machine work being the biggest component for the DIY'er. For the extra 300.00, why not? If the motor is already apart, why not just do it once, even over engineered, and be done with it? In addition, someone brought up the low rpm lack of power which is cured by increased compression really, or increased displacement. With any tunable ECU you can run 9.5-1 CR on pump gas, or just go 9-1 CR for those who only get 91 oct. The 8.5-9-9.5 CR Wiseco's all cost the same, so why not? For the extra 300.00 you get forged internals and higher compression. Of course there is machine work technically involved in putting even std. bore forged slugs in the block, but Buschur has been dropping std. bore forged slugs in for years without sending the block of, by just running the ball hone in each cylinder for like 3 minutes, without any failures or problems.
/brox
If you know somewhere that will do a full rebuild of a 4g63 head for $200, you'd better let us all in on your secret. I'm sure whoever is doing it would love to have more business.
I get mine done for 183.00 here in San Antonio. That's 16 pressed valve guides, 16 seats, 16 clean valves, decked and tanked. I assemble myself however, but the shop individually numbers each valve with the appropriate spot on the head. I press the seals myself obviously.
I also don't think it is over complicating things to build the motor right, once. The issue is a matter of cost benefit analysis. Look at the typical price for an Eagle/Wiseco piston rod combo on the Ebayz, 750.00ish. A little competitive bargaining can probably drop that closer to 700. So a 1G rod/2G piston combo is upwards of 400.00 either bought outright or DIY, the machine work being the biggest component for the DIY'er. For the extra 300.00, why not? If the motor is already apart, why not just do it once, even over engineered, and be done with it? In addition, someone brought up the low rpm lack of power which is cured by increased compression really, or increased displacement. With any tunable ECU you can run 9.5-1 CR on pump gas, or just go 9-1 CR for those who only get 91 oct. The 8.5-9-9.5 CR Wiseco's all cost the same, so why not? For the extra 300.00 you get forged internals and higher compression. Of course there is machine work technically involved in putting even std. bore forged slugs in the block, but Buschur has been dropping std. bore forged slugs in for years without sending the block of, by just running the ball hone in each cylinder for like 3 minutes, without any failures or problems.
/brox
Another cheap alternative to gain some compression is to run a 1.8 Hyundai Elantra cylinder head. They are identical in every necessary way to the 2.0 head except they have a smaller combustion chamber. Get it rebuilt instead of the stocker, bolt on all of the stock accessories and use your stock cams. It'll only run $50-$100 more than a stock rebuild, because you've got to buy the thing, but that's it. For your intended power output, this screams bang for the buck. It's a lot cheaper than forged or frankenstein internals.
boostedinaz
Well-known member
To build the motor right for what? Usualy the answer to that questions is the goals set forth by the OP. In this case he has stated a power number and a budget. He doesn't want or need (shouldn't put words in his mouth but this is based on our talks)to make 600 AWHP and based on that he doesn't need forged anything. On top of this an extra 300.00 out of a maybe 2500.00 budget is a decent chunck especially when a build like this will already nickel and dime his to death anyway. Now he has a motor that will hold a ton of power but may not be able to buy a gasket kit, or get a good tune on the car but oh man one of these days it will be a beats glad I planned ahead. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif
This, IMO, is one of the down falls of the DSM community. 16Gs use to be a good turbo, stock short blocks were good enough for most, but now everyone needs forged everything, ported and polished heads, and the smallest turbo available seems to be a 35R. Of course most of these cars never move and even though the turbo and motor can support a bazillion HP most cars never live up to the hype. "My injectors are to small.... my tranny is messed up.... the tune is not 100%" etc....
As I have said a few times now if someone wants to build a beast then do so AFTER the car is on the road and a reliable driver, after all, the is the OP original goal a reliable driver. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif
This, IMO, is one of the down falls of the DSM community. 16Gs use to be a good turbo, stock short blocks were good enough for most, but now everyone needs forged everything, ported and polished heads, and the smallest turbo available seems to be a 35R. Of course most of these cars never move and even though the turbo and motor can support a bazillion HP most cars never live up to the hype. "My injectors are to small.... my tranny is messed up.... the tune is not 100%" etc....
As I have said a few times now if someone wants to build a beast then do so AFTER the car is on the road and a reliable driver, after all, the is the OP original goal a reliable driver. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif
mitsuturbo
Well-known member
Quoting galant1517:
Another cheap alternative to gain some compression is to run a 1.8 Hyundai Elantra cylinder head. They are identical in every necessary way to the 2.0 head except they have a smaller combustion chamber. Get it rebuilt instead of the stocker, bolt on all of the stock accessories and use your stock cams. It'll only run $50-$100 more than a stock rebuild, because you've got to buy the thing, but that's it. For your intended power output, this screams bang for the buck. It's a lot cheaper than forged or frankenstein internals.
VERY good suggestion. This gets overlooked WAY too often. I knew about it, and even i didn't think about it when i carted a head off to the machine shop.
Another cheap alternative to gain some compression is to run a 1.8 Hyundai Elantra cylinder head. They are identical in every necessary way to the 2.0 head except they have a smaller combustion chamber. Get it rebuilt instead of the stocker, bolt on all of the stock accessories and use your stock cams. It'll only run $50-$100 more than a stock rebuild, because you've got to buy the thing, but that's it. For your intended power output, this screams bang for the buck. It's a lot cheaper than forged or frankenstein internals.
VERY good suggestion. This gets overlooked WAY too often. I knew about it, and even i didn't think about it when i carted a head off to the machine shop.
Man did I say hone only I meant machine work added cost but its needed after 176k and lucky for me it ceased at the crank but im having my crank looked at to make sure I can use it again.... Thank you all for the help so im gonna just build a good engine then if I have any money left out of my 2500 budget I will get a few goodies /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
cheekychimp
Well-known member
Quoting galant1517:
Another cheap alternative to gain some compression is to run a 1.8 Hyundai Elantra cylinder head. They are identical in every necessary way to the 2.0 head except they have a smaller combustion chamber. Get it rebuilt instead of the stocker, bolt on all of the stock accessories and use your stock cams. It'll only run $50-$100 more than a stock rebuild, because you've got to buy the thing, but that's it. For your intended power output, this screams bang for the buck. It's a lot cheaper than forged or frankenstein internals.
Quoting mitsuturbo:
VERY good suggestion. This gets overlooked WAY too often. I knew about it, and even i didn't think about it when i carted a head off to the machine shop.
Can either of you give me a little more information on this head as I don't believe we get that particular vehicle here in Asia. Is this head essentially a 1G or 2G head and how much more compression would it give? I am wondering what would happen if you were to use this head in conjunction with a 9.0 or 9.5 CR. Would it end up too high?
Another cheap alternative to gain some compression is to run a 1.8 Hyundai Elantra cylinder head. They are identical in every necessary way to the 2.0 head except they have a smaller combustion chamber. Get it rebuilt instead of the stocker, bolt on all of the stock accessories and use your stock cams. It'll only run $50-$100 more than a stock rebuild, because you've got to buy the thing, but that's it. For your intended power output, this screams bang for the buck. It's a lot cheaper than forged or frankenstein internals.
Quoting mitsuturbo:
VERY good suggestion. This gets overlooked WAY too often. I knew about it, and even i didn't think about it when i carted a head off to the machine shop.
Can either of you give me a little more information on this head as I don't believe we get that particular vehicle here in Asia. Is this head essentially a 1G or 2G head and how much more compression would it give? I am wondering what would happen if you were to use this head in conjunction with a 9.0 or 9.5 CR. Would it end up too high?
mitsuturbo
Well-known member
There is a difference of 4cc between the heads. I'm not sure what that would equate to as far as static Compression Ratio.
Not sure if this helps but I will throw here anyways.
I'm not sure what your power goals are but I'm doing pretty well with my stock 6 bolt bottom end. Previous owner rebuild the bottom end, rings, bearings, bored .020 over, etc. Pistons are still original and so are the rods @ 225,000 miles! WOOT WOOT! Anyways, just make sure it's built correctly. Maintenance is #1. I've been told that the stock blocks were able to push over 400hp...but haven't personally seen one yet. As for mods, Evo3 16g, 2g manifold, 3" exhaust system, 550cc, 190, fmic w/ solid IC pipings, act 2100, HKS mega airflow MAS, DSMLink v2.
3 Years ago, the car dyno'd at 199awhp/203awtq with the big 16g, stock IC, crappy street tune with afr's spiking to 14 at the 5.5k mark /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif. I'm positive with a good tune now and the mods I have, I should be in the 250-260 range or more...depending on the dyno I go to. I tell you now, the car is REALLLLLLY fun as it is. I can't imagine how much more fun it can be if I can go with e85 + FP HTA68 + 1000cc injectors + 255 fuel pump + tune. I know that my trans won't be able to hold it though lol.
I'm not sure what your power goals are but I'm doing pretty well with my stock 6 bolt bottom end. Previous owner rebuild the bottom end, rings, bearings, bored .020 over, etc. Pistons are still original and so are the rods @ 225,000 miles! WOOT WOOT! Anyways, just make sure it's built correctly. Maintenance is #1. I've been told that the stock blocks were able to push over 400hp...but haven't personally seen one yet. As for mods, Evo3 16g, 2g manifold, 3" exhaust system, 550cc, 190, fmic w/ solid IC pipings, act 2100, HKS mega airflow MAS, DSMLink v2.
3 Years ago, the car dyno'd at 199awhp/203awtq with the big 16g, stock IC, crappy street tune with afr's spiking to 14 at the 5.5k mark /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif. I'm positive with a good tune now and the mods I have, I should be in the 250-260 range or more...depending on the dyno I go to. I tell you now, the car is REALLLLLLY fun as it is. I can't imagine how much more fun it can be if I can go with e85 + FP HTA68 + 1000cc injectors + 255 fuel pump + tune. I know that my trans won't be able to hold it though lol.
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DR1665
Well-known member
This thread makes me sad.
1. What was once among the cleanest GVR4s around has been passed around and fucked by something like a half-dozen irresponsible, knuckle-dragging fucktards.
2. 1101 finally gets back into the hands of someone who just wants to drive it, and it shits the bed.
3. New owner gets bombarded with every Frankenstein clusterfuck contingency plan surefire way to "do it right."
How about this. I have a 99% stock 6-bolt collecting dust on an engine stand at 51st Ave and Thunderbird. It's got less than 10,000 miles on a fresh - STOCK - rebuild. Honed cylinders, fresh rings and bearings. Head cleaned up and serviced prior to being re-installed with a Mitsubishi MLS head gasket. New valve seals, intake/exhaust ports gasket matched and lightly cleaned up. Does not leak a drop of oil. Does not overheat. Only reason it's out is because some retard ran a red light and I caught him in the B-pillar doing about 45mph. Car is being stripped/prepped for a roll cage.
f*** all this noise. You've got a $2500 budget? I'll trade you straight up - your boat-anchor engine & $1000 for mine. Put a grand in my hand, pick up the engine in the morning, drive 1101 that night with $1500 in your pocket to play with.
Just throwing another idea out there.
1. What was once among the cleanest GVR4s around has been passed around and fucked by something like a half-dozen irresponsible, knuckle-dragging fucktards.
2. 1101 finally gets back into the hands of someone who just wants to drive it, and it shits the bed.
3. New owner gets bombarded with every Frankenstein clusterfuck contingency plan surefire way to "do it right."
How about this. I have a 99% stock 6-bolt collecting dust on an engine stand at 51st Ave and Thunderbird. It's got less than 10,000 miles on a fresh - STOCK - rebuild. Honed cylinders, fresh rings and bearings. Head cleaned up and serviced prior to being re-installed with a Mitsubishi MLS head gasket. New valve seals, intake/exhaust ports gasket matched and lightly cleaned up. Does not leak a drop of oil. Does not overheat. Only reason it's out is because some retard ran a red light and I caught him in the B-pillar doing about 45mph. Car is being stripped/prepped for a roll cage.
f*** all this noise. You've got a $2500 budget? I'll trade you straight up - your boat-anchor engine & $1000 for mine. Put a grand in my hand, pick up the engine in the morning, drive 1101 that night with $1500 in your pocket to play with.
Just throwing another idea out there.
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mitsuturbo
Well-known member
I like this idea, and i support it.
