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Redline Water Wetter


Jeff (526/1000)
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 344600 posted 05/31/06 02:03 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
just picked up a pint of this from RRE, it doesn't seem to have any effect on my coolant temps! any ideas?

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Ender
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 344672 posted 05/31/06 09:34 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
What are you using to measure the coolant temps?

Also what coolant mixture are you using?

Also you might want to consider the ambient air temp for the before and after, there are a few factors that come into play.


Edited by Ender (05/31/06 09:36 AM)

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Jeff (526/1000)
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 344754 posted 05/31/06 01:30 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
i am using my datalogger to measure the coolant temps, i have ~20/80 coolant water for the summer. i just flushed and bled the whole system. also, yesterday was fairly chilly out, it had been raining, so i was hoping to see temps in the 180 degree range.

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crankwalk
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 344769 posted 05/31/06 02:20 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Keep in mind the best setup is more water than coolant. Maybe 25% coolant then the rest water +water wetter.

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powerplay
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 344772 posted 05/31/06 02:24 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Since you are running 80% water already it will have less effect than if you were running a larger portion of coolant. Water Wetter works with the coolant to increase heat dissipation. Antifreeze/coolant isn't as efficient at dissipating heat as water. You may have other factors which are causing higher temperatures.



Scott
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crankwalk
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 344776 posted 05/31/06 02:29 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
^Read the bottle.

It says on there what the most effective setup on there is. All water +water wetter I believe. There is a note that says street cars should have at least 15% coolant though.

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crankwalk
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 344778 posted 05/31/06 02:34 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      

__________________________________________________________

Water Wetter

TECHNICAL INFORMATION
Red Line Water Wetter is designed to provide improved metal wetting and excellent corrosion inhibition when added to plain water or a glycol coolant. The most poorly maintained system in an automobile is usually the cooling system. Maintenance is quite simple and only required once each year, but most vehicle owners never routinely change the coolant or replenish the corrosion inhibitors which are required for trouble-free operation. Proper cooling system maintenance is very critical for most modern engines which utilize more aluminum. Aluminum has a very high corrosion potential, even higher than zinc, which is very widely used as a sacrificial anode. The only property which enables aluminum to be used in a cooling system is that it will form protective films under the proper conditions which will prevent the uncontrolled corrosive attack of acids or bases. Poor aluminum corrosion inhibition will cause the dissolution of aluminum at the heat rejection surfaces, weakening the cooling system walls and water pump casing and weakening the head gasket mating surfaces. These corrosion products will then form deposits on the lower temperature surfaces such as in radiator tubes which have very poor heat transfer properties, causing a significant reduction in the cooling ability of the entire system. Red Line Water Wetter will provide the proper corrosion inhibition for all cooling system metals, including aluminum, cast iron, steel, copper, brass, and lead.

Water has twice the heat transfer capability when compared to 50% glycol antifreeze/coolant in water. Most passenger automobiles have a cooling system designed to reject sufficient heat under normal operating conditions using a 50/50 glycol solution in water. However, in racing applications, the use of water and Water Wetter will enable the use of smaller radiator systems, which means less frontal drag, and it will also reduce cylinder head temperatures, even when compared to water alone, which means more spark advance may be used to improve engine torque.

BENEFIT SUMMARY
Doubles the wetting ability of water
Improves heat transfer
Reduces cylinder head temperatures
May allow more spark advance for increased torque
Reduces rust, corrosion and electrolysis of all metals
Provides long term corrosion protection
Cleans and lubricates water pump seals
Prevents foaming
Reduces cavitation corrosion
Complexes with hard water to reduce scale
COOLING SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS
The conventional spark ignition gasoline engine is not a very efficient powerplant. A considerable amount of the available fuel energy must be rejected from the metal combustion chamber parts by the coolant and dispersed to the atmosphere through the radiator. This heat rejection is necessary in order to prevent thermal fatigue of the pistons, cylinder walls, and the cylinder head. Another problem is that the combustion chamber must be cooled enough to prevent preignition and detonation. The higher the combustion chamber temperatures, the higher the octane number required to prevent preignition and detonation. Since the octane of the available fuel is limited, increasing temperatures in the combustion chamber require retarding the spark timing which reduces the peak torque available. Higher inlet temperatures also reduce the density of the fuel/air mixture, reducing available torque further. For these reasons reducing the flow of heat to the coolant usually reduces the efficiency of the engine. Figure 1 shows a typical heat balance diagram for a spark ignition engine. This diagram demonstrates that the coolant in an automobile engine must absorb and reject through the radiator 2 to 3 times the amount of energy which is converted to brake power.

THERMAL PROPERTIES
Water has amazingly superior heat transfer properties compared to virtually any other liquid cooling medium - far superior to glycol-based coolants. As shown in Table 1, water has almost 2.5 times greater thermal conductivity compared to glycol coolants. Mixtures of glycol and water have nearly proportional improvement due to the addition of water. Most heat is transferred in a cooling system by convection from hot metal to a cooler liquid as in the engine block or from a hot liquid to cooler metal surfaces, as in the radiator. The convection coefficient of liquids in a tube is a complicated relationship between the thermal conductivity, viscosity of the liquid, and the tube diameter which determines the amount of turbulent flow. Since 50/50 glycol solution has about 4 times the viscosity and only 70% of the thermal conductivity of water, the thermal convection coefficient for a 50/50 glycol solution is approximately 50% of the coefficient for water. Water in the cooling system is capable of transferring twice as much heat out of the same system as compared to a 50/50 glycol coolant and water solution. In order for a 50/50 glycol mixture to reject as much heat as water (amount of heat rejected is independent of the coolant), the temperature differentials at the heat transfer surface must be twice as great, which means higher cylinder head temperatures.

Table 1
Thermal Properties of Cooling System Materials
Material Density
g/cm3 Thermal
Conductivity
Watt/m · °C Thermal
Convection
Watt/m · °C Heat
Capacity
cal/g · °C Heat of
Vaporization
cal/g
Water 1.000 0.60 1829 1.000 539
Glycol 1.114 0.25 ------ 0.573 226
50/50 1.059 0.41 897 0.836 374

Aluminum 2.70 155 0.225
Cast Iron 7.25 58 0.119
Copper 8.93 384 0.093
Brass 8.40 113 0.091
Ceramics 1 - 10
Air .0013 .026 0.240

HEAT TRANSFER
Red Line Water Wetter can reduce cooling system temperatures compared to glycol solutions and even plain water. Water has excellent heat transfer properties in its liquid state, but very high surface tension makes it difficult to release water vapor from the metal surface. Under heavy load conditions, much of the heat in the cylinder head is transferred by localized boiling at hot spots, even though the bulk of the cooling solution is below the boiling point. Red Line's unique Water Wetter reduces the surface tension of water by a factor of two, which means that much smaller vapor bubbles will be formed. Vapor bubbles on the metal surface create an insulating layer which impedes heat transfer. Releasing these vapor bubbles from the metal surface can improve the heat transfer properties in this localized boiling region by as much as 15% as shown in Figure 2. This figure demonstrates the removal of heat from an aluminum bar at 304°F by quenching the bar in different coolants at 214°F under 15 psi pressure. Compare the time required to reduce the temperature of the aluminum to 250°F, or the boiling point of water at 15 psi. WaterWetter required 3.2 seconds, water alone 3.7 sec, 50/50 glycol in water required 10.2 sec, and 100% glycol required 21 sec. Water alone required 15% longer, 50/50 glycol 220% longer, and 100% glycol required 550% longer.



DYNO TEST RESULTS
Dynomometer tests performed by Malcolm Garrett Racing Engines showed significant improvements in coolant temperatures using Water Wetter. These tests were performed with a Chevrolet 350 V-8 with a cast iron block and aluminum cylinder heads. The thermostat temperature was 160°F. The engine operated at 7200 rpm for three hours and the stabilized cooling system temperature was recorded and tabulated below:

Cooling System Fluid Stabilized Temperature
50% Glycol/ 50% Water 228°F
50/50 with WaterWetter 220°F
Water 220°F
Water with WaterWetter 202°F

These numbers are similar to the temperatures recorded in track use and heavy-duty street use.

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powerplay
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 344782 posted 05/31/06 02:42 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Nice! Good information.



Scott
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Jeff (526/1000)
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 344806 posted 05/31/06 03:54 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
well right now i have mostly water and water wetter, with maybe 15-20% coolant, so i don't think the problem is there. anything else you can think of? yesterday after driving around town for maybe 15 minutes, my temps were around 206-209*, which is basically what they were before.

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atc250r Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 344808 posted 05/31/06 03:58 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I wouldn't trust what the logger says for any sort of consistent tests. Get a decent (Autometer or better) gauge and go by that. The biggest drop I saw was when I removed the AC condenser (the AC was dead anyway) and that gave me a 15-20* drop on the highway. Also, keep in mind that the fans don't come on until around 205* anyway so any sort of idling will always result in the temp getting that high before coming back down.

John



"...if they're so into masochism, they should just really go all out and start modifying Mitsubishis. And using them as daily drivers." - Mike R.

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Jeff (526/1000)
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 345121 posted 06/01/06 12:07 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
so when you install a coolant temp gauge, where are you getting the reading from? is it the coolant temp sensor in the bottom of the radiator?

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atc250r Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 345125 posted 06/01/06 12:13 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I removed the sensor from the back of the t-stat housing that turns on all the fans in an overheat situation, installed the sender for the aftermarket gauge there, and extended the blue/black wire that went to the sensor that used to be in the back of the housing. Then I ran that wire into the passenger compartment and through a switch to ground. Now as soon as I see it getting even a little warm in traffic I can hit the switch and turn all the fans on high speed. Its also good for running the fans with the car off and key on so you can cool it off between passes at the drag strip.

John



"...if they're so into masochism, they should just really go all out and start modifying Mitsubishis. And using them as daily drivers." - Mike R.

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skivittlerjimb
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 346321 posted 06/04/06 09:58 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I can chime in with some real world feedback that may help. Last summer I ran a normal mix of roughly 50/50 gylcol/water. At a 90 deg. track weekend last June I was at 2/3rds on the factory gauge after just 2-3 minutes of hard laps. At a similar track weekend in September with 75 deg. temps and with Water Wetter added to my existing mix, I still was above 1/2 on the factory gauge after a few laps.

Earlier this week I switched to a gallon of this "Pro-Blend" stuff that claimed to lower coolant temps 28 degrees (hey, what can I say, I happened upon it at Autozone ) , a bottle of Water Wetter, and the balance of the system capacity (about half a gallon) of distilled water. The ambient temps were cooler this weekend (never got about 70) but the factory gauge never got to halfway. It stayed right at 45% the entire time. I probably would have gotten about the same results with 80% water, 20% glycol, and a bottle of Water Wetter, but what I used worked. It was nice to have one less worry at the track.

Cooling set up is factory style Koyo radiator, factory fans and shrouds, and reg. temp. OEM thermostat. YMMV.

Also, in regards to running both fans, you can simply unplug your A/C compressor and turn on the A/C switch in the dash to run both fans if you like and want to avoid custom wiring a toggle switch. Just an idea.

-Jim B.
1432/2000
166k and out to play

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Josh Weaver
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 346394 posted 06/05/06 07:36 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
John,
Weren't you going to use a defrost-like timed switch for the fans at one point? I'd like to do something like that but from what I could gather from the circuit diagrams, the timing circuit is external to the switch. I'll have to figure something else out, or built my own timing circuit.

-Josh

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CP
Still lingering, kinda like a chili and beer fart


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 346451 posted 06/05/06 10:14 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I'm running WW, and about 95% distilled water this summer. I've topped it off with some Prestone so I can determine what the puddle beneath my car is if I spring a leak (vs AC condenser runoff). I've also wired the two fans to a switch, which I plan to have running while out on the track.

My car seems to consistently run over 200* during everyday driving. The radiator is clean and debris-free. I'm thinking I should replace my radiator that I got from radiators.com a year ago with a nice thick aluminum unit later this summer.



-Cy
Resident Spec Miata Racer | '93 Audi UrS4 | '04 Ram CTD | #1788/2000: SOLD

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atc250r Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 346458 posted 06/05/06 10:27 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Nah, I don't think I was ever going to do that Josh. If you wanted that wire that you ground to run the fans all the time it'd be a good bit of work. It'd be easier to run a seperate wire and a relay to the fan and have it work off of battery power.

John



"...if they're so into masochism, they should just really go all out and start modifying Mitsubishis. And using them as daily drivers." - Mike R.

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AKjack
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 348438 posted 06/10/06 10:08 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
Had one bad experiance with WW I'd like to pass along. It was my mistake and not a falt of the WW. It flushed all the rust that was in my block (old Jeep) and put it in the radiator . So make shure your cooling system is clean and working correctly before using it .

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