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which brakes are the better choice


THEKID
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 830106 posted 09/15/09 07:59 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
i have a baer big brake kit bit is the 3000gt brake kit better. what are the pros cons of each.



KID
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Barnes
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 830221 posted 09/16/09 12:01 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
3000gt brake kit as in...? 3000gt brakes? Or an after market kit for a 3000gt? Or are you talking about the 3000gt VR-4?



-Jon Barnes
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vr4underboost
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 830264 posted 09/16/09 02:50 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting THEKID:

i have a baer big brake kit bit is the 3000gt brake kit better. what are the pros cons of each.




I had the Baer kit on my car it is useless if you're looking to improve stopping power. I haven't used the 3000GT brakes so I can't comment on that.

The other option you have is the Stoptech kit which is what I replaced the Baer kit with. I just did a track day at the end of August with the Stoptech brakes and they performed flawlessly using the Axxis pads they come loaded with. I'll also mention that each session I was out the car did at least 10 laps with temps. on the day reaching 114 degrees with absolutely no fade.

IIRC TCE also makes a BBK using Wilwood calipers, which a couple people on here have. In the end it's all going depend on what you want the brakes for. IMHO the Baer BBK looked the part but stopped worse than my stock GVR4 brakes. They could barely stop the car on the street so I couldn't imagine doing a track day with them.

Daryl

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Olson
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 830269 posted 09/16/09 03:21 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
DO you know what kind of pads the baer kit had ??.
heres another question.

i know the dsm's come with a 5 lug setup. but or our spindles the same as the dsm's but with a 4 lug setup. as in could i get a TCE/Wilwood setup but run a diffrent rotor??
JAke



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vr4underboost
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 830270 posted 09/16/09 03:50 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Not sure what pads the Baer kit came with but I ended up putting a set of Performance Friction race pads to get the car to stop, along with that came a lot of noise, brake dust and cracks around the holes on the rotors.

Initially when I installed the Baer kit I had 4 lug hubs on the car and drilled a hole in each rotor which worked for years before switching to 5 lug hubs. This was easy on the Baer kit because it was a 1 piece rotor. The Stoptech kit uses a 2 piece design with a aluminum hat and designed for a DSM. The TCE kit is designed for the GVR4 so it will work with the 4 lug hubs without issue.

Daryl

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Olson
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 830289 posted 09/16/09 07:31 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
hmmm intresting



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Garfield Wright
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 830295 posted 09/16/09 07:46 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Here's the biggest challenge with the 3kgt vr4 calipers, clearance. These calipers are really wide so wheel clearance is critical. If you're willing to run the Evo 8-X wheels you're good on clearance. If you plan on running an aftermarket wheel then you're going to have to spend big bucks. Volks TE37 or Forgelines are your best options or plan on running a wheel spacer.

I like the 3kgt vr4 calipers for the upgraded factory bling. I run factory pads & am happy with it. I don't do track days so stopping consistently isn't an issue. If I did track days all I'd do is run Hawk pads. I'm very happy with it's performance. Next year I hope to do a few track days/autocross so I can start to enjoy driving the car again.

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Hertz Galant VR4.org Administrator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 830429 posted 09/16/09 03:06 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I've got the 3000GT VR-4 brakes on 77, but have not tried them yet. Curtis tried them out and pulled it because of the pedal feel. He suggested perhaps retrofitting the 3000GT master cylinder.



Ryan Hertz

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vr4underboost
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 830483 posted 09/16/09 04:45 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
^^^^ Good point. I think a key ingredient that is missing in a lot of BBK's is the piston bore size. In speaking about the matter with ACT's former head of R & D who was a head engineer for Brembo prior to that and a buddy of mine at Wilwood the calipers used in any BBK kit have to be matched to the car's master cylinder. In the case of the Stoptech BBK it was designed to work with the stock DSM master cylinder and it provides consistent pedal feel and modulation.

Daryl

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Garfield Wright
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 830514 posted 09/16/09 05:48 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Yes there is a little pedal travel with the 3kgt vr4 calipers. You can upgrade to the 3kgt vr4 master cylinder but this means you have to cut or drill into the strut tower & run new lines (not that difficult). The lines for the 3kgt vr4 master cyliner exits the side right by the strut tower. Jeremy (a local) did it & he said there's no more pedal travel.

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jepherz Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 830658 posted 09/16/09 11:36 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I have the Camaro/Cobra upgrade, and it works awesome. Did two track days an never had problems with fade with the right (ATE super blue) fluid. A guy was out there in an EVO X and he was fading and boiling brake fluid like crazy.

You may want to consider pad options before you do the swap, as certain pads aren't available in each. As mentioned, the 3000gt setup is harder to fit under wheels because of the 4 piston caliper, and parts are probably more expensive and harder to find as well. One advantage of the 3000gt calipers is that they are a solid mounted caliper and allow hot swapping of pads.

I think you guys stating that the stop tech kit was "designed to work with the stock MC" should really think through that. I think you may be playing into the wording too much.

Also, the stop tech kit that one of my buddies had on his Audi A6 was $800 for a rebuild kit... That's a hell of a lot of money.



-Jeff
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Edited by jepherz (09/16/09 11:47 PM)

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vr4underboost
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 830691 posted 09/17/09 02:54 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I think you guys stating that the stop tech kit was "designed to work with the stock MC" should really think through that. I think you may be playing into the wording too much.

The only person saying that is me. I thought it through and had two people that are considered to be experts explain it to me. What exactly are you saying needs to be thought through? .

OEM companies and aftermarket ones like Brembo and Wilwood (who also happen to design braking systems for OE's)put a great deal of thought into a cars braking system. If it was just as easy as putting a bigger caliper onto a rotor and calling it day without determining the caliper piston size/master cylinder size along with showing actual decreases in stopping distances, pedal modulation and feel every one could do it.

I'm not saying that the OP or anyone else needs to go buy a Stoptech kit. He asked for an opinion on a kit I used and gave him an opinion on it along with my opinion on a kit that has worked for me.

Also, the stop tech kit that one of my buddies had on his Audi A6 was $800 for a rebuild kit... That's a hell of a lot of money.

Depending on the Stoptech caliper, 4 piston or 6 piston your buddy could have bought two new calipers for $800 instead of a rebuild kit. In the end it's all up to the individual to choose what will work best for them from the available options out there.

Daryl

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grocery_getter
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 830694 posted 09/17/09 03:08 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
The Camaro caliper & Cobra rotor upgrade = Baer BBK.



Andre
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GreenGSX
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 830737 posted 09/17/09 09:30 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
My only experience between the two is the Baer setup. We used it successfully on the One Lap VR4. There are some important things to keep in mind when selecting brakes. For us it was performance first and then ease of service second. Performance wise the Baer kit was flawless and we could brake just as hard and stop as fast as anything else out there short of a full on race car. I had used the Baer kit on my track car for many years before it was moved to the One Lap car so we really knew what to expect performance wise.

The choice to use it and not something else, even when we were offered other kits for free, was ease of service. The baer track kit is nothing more then a mustang cobra brake system from 1995. That means the caliper has dust boots are fit for daily driving, rotors can be found at your local auto parts store for less then $60, and everybody makes pads for it. In a pinch you can even hit the local auto zone and they can get the PF Z rated pads for less then $100 that you can use on the track. The caliper is a stock caliper and you can get a new or rebuilt one pretty easily along with a caliper pin and a caliper rebuild kit ($10). Be sure to check out the replacment costs and servicability of any kit you are considering. Some of that Brembo caliper and exotic rotor stuff can be very expensive and difficult to get to your door quick. Might not be an issue for a daily driver but if you work your brakes hard you have to expect them to require service often.

In my opinion, if the performance fits your needs and its a cheap and easy to service kit then it sounds like a winner to me. And that's why we picked it for the One Lap car.

One final thought is that if you are boiling brake fluid and burning up brakes obviously bigger brakes can be a solution but just as important are the use of brake cooling ducts and proper braking technique. This might be a good topic for another thread but brake cooling ducts simply work and work very well. I have found that most track drivers (I am and instructor) brake to early and drag there brakes into the braking zone. That puts a ton of heat into them for no good reason. If your burning up your brakes brake late, deep, and stand the car on its nose. Then get off them as quick as you can and move on to the next corner. Minimizing the time you are on the brakes will make a huge difference.



click

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jepherz Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 830745 posted 09/17/09 09:59 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
Quoting vr4underboost:

The only person saying that is me. I thought it through and had two people that are considered to be experts explain it to me. What exactly are you saying needs to be thought through? .




Sorry, I just meant that there's nothing unique about the caliper when compared to our cars brake setup for stock, and that random other kits could meet the same numbers in terms of "designed" for our cars. That's all.

Quoting vr4underboost:


OEM companies and aftermarket ones like Brembo and Wilwood (who also happen to design braking systems for OE's)put a great deal of thought into a cars braking system. If it was just as easy as putting a bigger caliper onto a rotor and calling it day without determining the caliper piston size/master cylinder size along with showing actual decreases in stopping distances, pedal modulation and feel every one could do it.

I'm not saying that the OP or anyone else needs to go buy a Stoptech kit. He asked for an opinion on a kit I used and gave him an opinion on it along with my opinion on a kit that has worked for me.

Also, the stop tech kit that one of my buddies had on his Audi A6 was $800 for a rebuild kit... That's a hell of a lot of money.

Depending on the Stoptech caliper, 4 piston or 6 piston your buddy could have bought two new calipers for $800 instead of a rebuild kit. In the end it's all up to the individual to choose what will work best for them from the available options out there.

Daryl




And I'm not saying that StopTech doesn't put thought into their calipers, because I know they do. All I'm trying to point out to those that may not know, is that you can find OEM run of the mill parts that fit the same bill. Finding someone to develop a bracket to hold them on is another story Just because people like digit ( ) try to stuff as large of a caliper as possible inside a wheel, and make sure it has a ton of pistons, does not mean that his kit is better than some DIY setup. Other changes to a car such as wheel size, tires, and weight distribution then further mess with the brake system that aftermarket brake companies can't even compensate for.

I think we're on the same page



-Jeff
1881/2000
50/1000


Edited by jepherz (09/17/09 10:01 AM)

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