GalantVR4.org The Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 Forum
Galant VR-4 Forums » Galant VR-4 » Technical Discussions » Re: Post your FMIC and FMIC Info
Previous thread Next thread

Re: Post your FMIC and FMIC Info


TWEAKD4
Member ++
59/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 23632 posted 10/19/03 03:20 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I have the same system as Hibrn8. Spearco 2-221 with TEL style pipe routing. Endtanks on same side with custom made pipes.

Posts: 605 | From: Fort Wayne, IN | Member Since: 03/24/02 | IP: (63.233.204.248) | Report this post to a Moderator

GVR$in
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 23633 posted 10/19/03 04:18 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
quote:
Originally posted by number3:


15-20" of "extra" IC piping is not going to make any difference in performance, but adding 6-12 unneeded bends will.

Harry


Harry, could these 'unneeded' bends be in mine and everyone elses upgraded IC pipes following the stock route?

| | | IP: (68.169.157.168) | Report this post to a Moderator

turbowop
Hard Snarker
1051/2000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 23634 posted 10/19/03 04:36 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Just be thankful we don't have Subaru WRX's that were trying to put fmic's in. Lots of bends and piping required for one in those cars. And that last bend into the throttle body that I have seen on WRX pipes is crazy....it's almost a full 180 degrees.

I agree that short routing probably helps response and spoolup and such, but I'm not going to go and change all my stuff around because I think the gains would be quite minimal for the work involved. I think with "short routing" on a gvr4 which requires two 90 degree bends--one to come out of the endtank then up behind the headlight, and another to aim the piping into the engine bay I would only lose maybe one and a half 90 degree bends on my system.

Posts: 11935 | From: Yakima, WA | Member Since: 04/29/01 | IP: (68.118.212.154) | Report this post to a Moderator

galantvr4us
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 23635 posted 10/19/03 04:37 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
quote:
Originally posted by Clay:
katie what core is that?

Don't know the guy that made it makes the radiators and high end intercoolers for the F1 cars and such. I couldn't tell you the core. He did supurb work.

Katie

| | | IP: (24.207.245.93) | Report this post to a Moderator

Russya
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 23636 posted 10/19/03 04:52 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Well if anyone can figure out the test for the intercooler pipe theory I'd be willing to test it out since I'm pretty sure no one has shorter piping than I do in fact I don't think shorter piping is possible. Though I don't think it's a big difference in power the length, the bend theory is correct and so is the throttle response theory I made mine as short as I did so that I could maximize the throttle respone and to prove a point as far as Air/water intercoolers are concerned.

| | | IP: (12.254.141.168) | Report this post to a Moderator

iangvr4
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 23637 posted 10/19/03 05:46 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Since I have quite a few pics of the install as well, here is a link with all the pics. Still need to get one with the bumper on, lol. [Smile]

http://groups.msn.com/IansGalantVR4/fmicandpipinginstall.msnw?albumlist=2

I have RRE GVR-4 Piping and a Spearco core with custom endtanks. The Core is something like 22"x12"x3.5"

| | | IP: (12.254.81.12) | Report this post to a Moderator

spoulson
0 people like this


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 23638 posted 10/19/03 07:32 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Y:
Extreme FMIC kit
http://www.wideopenwest.com/~syorga

Do you know if Extreme still sells the kit? Their website has had the FMIC listed for as long as I can remember. But their catalog says "this will be a limited production run! This is a once in a lifetime opportunity."

Posts: 2907 | From: Middletown, DE | Member Since: 02/05/03 | IP: (68.34.163.252) | Report this post to a Moderator

Whistler
Member
116/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 23639 posted 10/20/03 12:35 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Here are a few pictures of my intercooler:
 -
 -
 -
 -

Please disregard the dents, leaves, bird shit, and miscellaneous dirt.

Posts: 187 | From: Birmingham Al 35216 | Member Since: 04/30/01 | IP: (68.17.129.53) | Report this post to a Moderator

Doug Thomas
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 23640 posted 10/20/03 06:57 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
quote:
Originally posted by Whistler:
Here are a few pictures of my intercooler:
 -
 -
 -
 -

Please disregard the dents, leaves, bird shit, and miscellaneous dirt.

Any pics with the bumper cover on the car?

| | | IP: (67.87.107.124) | Report this post to a Moderator

curtis Galant VR4.org Moderator
Space Blanket from NASA plumbed into the attic
475/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 23641 posted 10/20/03 08:15 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
3 Ford Thunderbird 2.3 cores had one, friend had one bought one for 10 dollars. Welding was 50 bucks. Total investment 60 dollars and gas to the junkyard. [Big Grin] It measures 27 x 12 x 3. Not the most perfect layout for flow but builds up ice in the winter on almost the whole thing so I suppose it works.


old pic with the 2 inch pipes
 -
top pipe (part ac dryer bottle, aicraft elbow, aem honda cold air pipe and stock Galant Vr4 air intake elbow)
 -

 -

Posts: 11892 | From: Clarksville TN | Member Since: 05/04/03 | IP: (166.90.116.234) | Report this post to a Moderator

Bimmubishi
giant log


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 23642 posted 10/20/03 09:47 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Harry is right about the bends. There is pressure drop when air is forced around tight corners.

I refer anyone to corky bell's book.

Also, the guy that made Katie's core doesn't make F1 cores. F1 cars aren't turbo anymore but it is superb work.


Here's a definitive link to probably put closure to the argument.

http://www.bankspower.com/tech_howairflows.cfm

Edit:
I just spoke with the senior engineer here at work. He said that bends cause turbulence and eddys slowing the air flow, which then has to re-accelerate upon exit of the corner.

Airflow is at almost zero near the wall of a tube and actually at zero at the wall so the theoretical versus actual flow is really 100%to 80% given the flow versus distance from the tube wall.

(end edit)

Posts: 5701 | From: Boston, Massachusetts | Member Since: 07/15/03 | IP: (128.197.64.109) | Report this post to a Moderator

GalantVR41062
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 23643 posted 10/20/03 10:53 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I have the DSM Performance FMIC. 11x22x3 top to bottom flow(1280cfm) sperco core, 2.25" inlet, 2.5" outlet. I have a 60trim garrett with a 20g style outlet. my IC piping is 2.5" from the turbo to the TB. Very short route, 4 bends total. I will take some pics asap. A lot of cutting was needed to fit this in there.

~John

| | | IP: (24.118.193.133) | Report this post to a Moderator

Clay
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 23644 posted 10/20/03 11:06 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
whistler, what core is that? did you buy it with endtanks on it, or did you put some on?

how much hp does the extreme kit support? does it hurt any that its only 2.75 inches thick ?

| | | IP: (65.244.169.31) | Report this post to a Moderator

Whistler
Member
116/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 23645 posted 10/20/03 12:03 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
quote:
Originally posted by Doug Thomas:
Any pics with the bumper cover on the car?

Doug, give me a few days and I will post some pictures with the bumper on. Just sold my digital camera and the new one should be here at the end of the week.

quote:
Originally posted by Clay:
whistler, what core is that? did you buy it with endtanks on it, or did you put some on?

Clay, the core is a Spearco 2-216 from IRC with standard TEL end tanks.

Posts: 187 | From: Birmingham Al 35216 | Member Since: 04/30/01 | IP: (12.86.88.75) | Report this post to a Moderator

mixx2001
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 23646 posted 10/20/03 03:47 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Two 99' A4 1.8t coolers. 70 bucks a peice (new) and 25 dollars for welding.

 -

| | | IP: (65.165.18.233) | Report this post to a Moderator

mixx2001
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 23647 posted 10/20/03 04:28 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Following Bimmubishi's link.

 -

"This diagram indicates laminar flow through a conduit. The length of the arrows represents the relative speed of the fluid in the conduit. The fastest flow is at the very center of the conduit, and the slowest flow is adjacent to the conduit walls. If the conduit is round, you can picture this as concentric “layers” of flow, gradually increasing in speed from the outside toward the center. The thicker the fluid (high density), the greater the variation in speed of the layers will be. If the density of the fluid is high enough, tumbling between the layers will occur, significantly reducing flow through the conduit. "

So cooler air thats more dense, is more likely to fall victum to poor IC pipe interior surfaces. So maybe hone em?

So what would be less efficent for airflow:

- Less bends while traveling over the deadly exhaust manifold?
- Or two real nasty (but smooth) bends at the Turbo outlet and the drivers side inlet for the IC?

It seems to me that a setup like Harry's, assuming that his lower IC pipe goes over the ex mani (I can't see it from the members rides) would be optimal. As long as lots of "Thermal management" was used. Such as Heat reflective cool wrap on the lower (upper lower) pipe and maybe an additional heat sheild for the mani.

Every seen that road race setup on the Mofugas site. Bet that spooled nice.

| | | IP: (65.165.18.233) | Report this post to a Moderator

curtis Galant VR4.org Moderator
Space Blanket from NASA plumbed into the attic
475/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 23648 posted 10/21/03 12:06 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
smoother the better on the inside because the air acually tumbles that is in direct contact with the sides of the pipe. Air also flow with a parabolic distribution like the picture above thats whay you never want to instantly step down or up in pipe size. Corky bells novel on turbo design states that it should have a 15 degree taper. I tryed this on my system refer to my pipe that is pictured in the above post. It works. Now for bends "Fuild power theory and application" by sullivan (isbn 0-13-755588-1)has a lot of good info on this stuff had this class last year about this time and remember a lenghty discussion I had with the PHD type (did his thesis on fuild dynamics) that was giving the class on IC pipe design. A 90 is better than running a lot of slight bends or 45's because it cause turbulence in the system. On a hugh set up in a factory or at 3 mile island it is a problem but in a small intercooler system like a car the static losses due to friction is very small. The friction factor for drawn steel tubing 2.5 in dia is .000002. I can't really figure everyones system because everyone has different IC's, turbos, pipes etc. and at differnt turbo speeds this all changes) but heres the formula for head loss due to friction.
hf= friction factor x (lenght of pipe/Dia.in ft)(velocity of fuild flow/2 x gravitational constant which is 32.2 ft/sec squared). And don't let anyone tell you that they know what happens during turbulent flow or when it happens it just happens and it is bad.

on the net look up Darcy-Weisbach and Hagen-Poiseuille formulas also Reynolds number.

Posts: 11892 | From: Clarksville TN | Member Since: 05/04/03 | IP: (67.25.36.239) | Report this post to a Moderator

Doug Thomas
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 23649 posted 10/21/03 08:31 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Sorry, but your car is not going to be any faster or make any more power with the shorter piping. Like I said before they're Galants and DSM following the stock route piping and they are as fast as the cars running the shorter routing. If your running an internal gated 16G on a Galant you have no choice but to go over the manifold. No matter what you do if you run over or under the manifold your going to have some type of 90-degree bend and it doesn’t make a difference. It’s matter of preference as far I’m concerned your car is not going to perform any differential either way.

| | | IP: (12.10.219.30) | Report this post to a Moderator

Doug Thomas
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 23650 posted 10/21/03 08:38 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
quote:
Originally posted by number3:
Here is the breakdown of my system (to eliminate the guess work). First please note this is not to say "my way" is right OR wrong but just one of many ways to do it.


I have 6 bends in my IC system verses the 16 bends in the stock routing.

90 out of the turbo (under manifold)
90 out of the engine bay
90 into the FMIC
slightly less than 90 up and out of the FMIC and into the engine bay
45 to get pipe to TB level

 -


Large sweeping 90 in the TB

 -

Harry

That is definitely one large 90-degree bend for sure. The bend almost hits the shock tower. Kind of long if your concern with short route piping if you ask me. [Roll Eyes]

| | | IP: (12.10.219.30) | Report this post to a Moderator

Pivvay
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 23651 posted 10/21/03 08:46 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
quote:
That is definitely one large 90-degree bend for sure. The bend almost hits the shock tower. Kind of long if your concern with short route piping if you ask me.
I think that's the point. The longer and more gentle the bend the less flow restriction. The extra length of straight pipe is inconsequential but sharp bends are not. FWIW I have a similar setup on my car.

| | | IP: (162.18.125.155) | Report this post to a Moderator

Doug Thomas
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 23652 posted 10/21/03 09:05 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
quote:
Originally posted by Pivvay:
quote:
That is definitely one large 90-degree bend for sure. The bend almost hits the shock tower. Kind of long if your concern with short route piping if you ask me.
I think that's the point. The longer and more gentle the bend the less flow restriction. The extra length of straight pipe is inconsequential but sharp bends are not. FWIW I have a similar setup on my car.
Do you really think in the real world that's going to make an ounce of difference? Because it's not. [Razz]

| | | IP: (12.10.219.46) | Report this post to a Moderator

mixx2001
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 23653 posted 10/21/03 09:23 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
quote:
Originally posted by Doug Thomas:
Like I said before they're Galants and DSM following the stock route piping and they are as fast as the cars running the shorter routing.

That wouldn't have anything to do with tuning would it? Two 4363's with identical modifications could run times a world apart. How fast a car is at the track has very little to do with the specific power output of that vehicle in comparison to another.

Do you think the extra effort that went into designing this system was a total waste?
- Pic

The car may not make much more peak power, but when that peak power comes in 1 or 2k sooner than someone with a "It dosent matter how long it is" routed system. Well, you see where I am going with this.

quote:
Do you really think in the real world that's going to make an ounce of difference? Because it's not.
Then why do you bother to modify your car at all. Everything you do may not seem so significant, individually. But when you look at the big picture, it all adds up. I did'nt not put the best flowing air filter on my car because it would only yield a theoretical 2hp difference. I chose it because I want the best for my car and it's performance. To each his own, but it seems strange to only perform modifications that yield "x" amount of power because anything less isn't worth it.

"Whatever is worth doing at all, is worth doing well." - Philip Dormer Stanhope, Earl of Chesterfield (1694–1773)

| | | IP: (65.165.18.233) | Report this post to a Moderator

Bimmubishi
giant log


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 23654 posted 10/21/03 09:31 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Doug's being stubborn [Wink]

Posts: 5701 | From: Boston, Massachusetts | Member Since: 07/15/03 | IP: (128.197.64.109) | Report this post to a Moderator

mixx2001
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 23655 posted 10/21/03 09:40 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Is it possible to get something to travel over a greater distance using the same force? Or am I way off in my thinking here? [Confused]

| | | IP: (65.165.18.233) | Report this post to a Moderator

Pivvay
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 23656 posted 10/21/03 09:43 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
quote:
Do you really think in the real world that's going to make an ounce of difference? Because it's not
Well regardless of making a real difference in the real world, I'd still do it again.

1) Less bends is cheaper.
2) Less bends does make a real world difference. It just may not be noticable [Razz]

Doug, Why don't you run some IC piping up and down your car a few times and see how it goes? Lol. But you are right that in terms of "short route" vs traditional, any gains are pretty small compared to driver skill, tuning, etc etc. Run what's easiest to *get on* your car. Because the intercooler sitting on your garage shelf is definitely slower [Big Grin]

| | | IP: (162.18.125.155) | Report this post to a Moderator


Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5
Previous thread Next thread

Extra information
0 registered and 10 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Galant VR4.org Moderator:  curtis, steve, atc250r, jcgalntvr4-244, cheekychimp, jepherz, Rausch, toybreaker, iceman69510, pot, FlyingEagle 

Print Thread

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Thread views: 9426

Rate this thread


News & Events: News | Events
Galant VR-4: Newbies | General VR4 Discussions | Technical Discussions | How To and Info Archive
Marketplace: Parts For Sale | Cars For Sale | Good Guys | Bad Guys
Community: Members' Showcase

Contact Us | Privacy statement GalantVR-4.org

Generated in 0.147 seconds in which 0.069 seconds were spent on a total of 14 queries. Turbo powered.


Hertz's Galant VR-4 Page