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squeezing out the HP

Rallytimebitches

Active member
Joined
Oct 12, 2010
Messages
36
Location
woodinville, Wa
I wanted to start a discussion on some of the successful tips and techniques many of you have used before to dial in a moderately to highly modified setup. When you're at the point where you have your car freshly built, tuned, and it doesn't make as much power as you thought it should. When you want to start tweaking and dialing things in to attain more power, where do you start? Where were you successful? What are some of the things you found that bottlenecked your setup??

I will start with me. Once I had gathered the parts I needed and had everything together, I recently had my car dual map tuned on Q16 and was bummed at the output. The car was English Racing tuned and it made 468 whp / 393 wtq @ 31.2 psi... on 92 octane it made 384 whp/ 312 tq @ 21psi. While I enjoyed the newfound power delivery, I feel like this turbo with this setup could really do better. So I looked for inefficiencies in the system. Where is airflow limited? Heat issues? Exhaust flow?

Here's my list of mods:

2.0, link v3 full,

turbo/exhaust:
-FP RED journal
-TURBOSMART external wastegate 38mm 14.5psi spring
-HALLMAN PRO manual boost controller
-ported 2g manifold and o2 housing
-full custom 3" turboback exhaust, catless, with magnaflow race stainless steel muffler, flanged dump pipe rerouted to exhaust

intake/fuel/ignition:
-FIC 1200cc injectors
-walbro 255 fuel pump and rewire
-AEROMOTIVE fpr
-custom sheet metal intake manifold
-cold air intake
-custom fmic with 2.5" piping
-ngr bov

Motor:

block:
-2.0
-cp pistons 9:1
-1g rods
-arp main studs
-arp rod bolts
-micropolished crank
-clevite77 mains and rod bearings

head:
-arp head studs
-new oem valves
-new oem valve stem seals
-new oem valves, springs, retainers, stem seals, ARP head studs
-HKS 272/272

This setup I feel is fully capable of supporting over 500-600 horsepower. Where should I look to dial/tweak/adjust or even upgrade to gain more power? I've considered:
-better charge cooling. Maybe a more efficient intercooler. Boost leaks are minimal. I have a minor exhaust leak on the manifold at the wastegate.
-I also have considered a full dump tube to prevent limiting the top end flow through the wastegate at WOT.

I am aiming for 550whp and I know DSMs have attained this number with the FP RED. I feel like this isn't unrealistic expectation with this setup, and even if I changed all these things above I dont think it would yield the +90whp that I am looking for. That's why I am appealing for second opinions on what I should consider working on. Is it simple as more boost and timing? Just turn up the turbo to 38 psi on Q16 and tune for power?

Everyone wants to max their setup for the most power that can be safely and reliably delivered. Finding the bottlenecks is often difficult and can use a second set of eyes. I'm hoping not to only get help with my own setup, but maybe starting a conversation that leads to well documented and displayed techniques for people having trouble finding the limitations within their own setups.

Thanks ahead of time!

-Rallytime
 

G

Staff member
Joined
Feb 24, 2004
Messages
8,896
Location
zompton
What fuel filter? The stock bottleneck?
Throttle body? Q45?
Ditch the 2g mani and go with an FP.
Ditch the custom intake mani and get a hypertune.
Speed density?
What head gasket?

You did not mention budget.
 
Last edited:

Rallytimebitches

Active member
Joined
Oct 12, 2010
Messages
36
Location
woodinville, Wa
Thanks for replying.

As for budget, I don't mind spending money on mg galant, obviously. I am aware that this hobby costs thousands of dollars, but I buy things that are needed at a realistically moderated budget. For example, I bought a Journal bearing turbo versus it's ball bearing counterpart because it was a grand cheaper. I'm not against spending money, but I do my best to spend it wisely. The most reliable ft/lb & hp per dolla!

Anyway,

--car is on speed density.

--Yes it's the stock fuel filter, however the fpr guage hasn't lead me to believe it is restricting fuel at this point. Even at wot on the dyno, the guage needle held strong. No flutter or dips. What do you suggest I swap it out for?

--It's a 1g throttle body. What is optimal? I've considered a bored and half shaft 65mm 1g tb. Suggestions here?

--Cometic mls head gasket.
--the intake manifold I believe is the old school jmf fab one powder coated black. Will the hypertune be worth the money time and effort of install? I guess what I mean is will it actually show that much improvement over the jmf fab?

--the ported 2g manifold is something I've thought probably limits exhaust flow. The FP dsm race mani was my next consideration.

These are the kinds of ideas I am looking for. Thank you.
 

G

Staff member
Joined
Feb 24, 2004
Messages
8,896
Location
zompton
I was referring to the stock banjo/ eyelet bottleneck. Adapters exist to convert it to an fittings to free up some flow. You could knock out the tb and intake in one shot, hypertune sells a matching tb to go with their intake mani. In my opinion it will definitely help, this will eliminate that tb/ mani bottleneck. The engineering and development of a hypertune product vs jmf is night and day.
 

turbowop

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 29, 2001
Messages
11,971
Location
Yakima, WA
I suggest not listening to G on this. Is he a Hypertune salesman? Wtf? If you want some JDM bling for looks, see him. If you want horsepower, listen to those that are actually making some.

I see nothing holding you back from making the power you want. Unless you're seeing fuel go lean, the fuel system is working fine. Headgasket isn't holding you back either, lol. You may see some gains with an FP manifold, but that's about it. Nothing else would be that substantial. Is compression good? Intake temps after the intercooler? I would definitely expect a little more with racegas. Try more boost? Do you have logs from the tune session?

Basically, you don't need to throw more parts at it. If others make more power on close to the same setup, there is probably an issue. And it's not the intake manifold.
 
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slugsgomoo

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Joined
Oct 16, 2003
Messages
3,770
Location
Tacoma, WA
I have a non turbo throttlebody (same as stock, just uses a coupler instead of the bolt on elbow) and the very one on my car was able to flow enough for 636hp/594ft-lb with an FP3575... I don't really see that as the main limiting factor here. 2g manifold doesn't flow quite as much as the FP but it can still make plenty of power. Is the WG dumped to atmo, or recirculated? Do you have a dyno chart and a log (or even just a screenshot of the log where it's making peak power on pump? I'm curious about timing/boost/fuel/etc.

What's the limiting factor in your tune (boost/timing/fuel)?

Without knowing that, I don't think it's easy to just start spitballing with parts to buy.

I do have a stock filter on one car and I just have an adapter from whatever thread pitch the factory banjo is, to -6 and it works just fine. You'd have to look up whether it's BST/BPT/NPT or some crap, but most of those fittings are about $5 on summit and don't need to be JDM tyte yo.
 

prove_it

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Joined
Jul 3, 2008
Messages
4,201
Location
Sioux Falls, SD
I'm with G on the fuel bottleneck at post filter, but as far as the throttle body/manifold being a bottleneck..... If it was NA yea, but I've plenty of 500hp set-ups with the stock throttle body and stock manifold.

Sure JMF, Forrester, Hypertune will all add power, but hell it's not a bottleneck.
 

turbowop

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Apr 29, 2001
Messages
11,971
Location
Yakima, WA
He already has the JMF intake manifold, and a $2k Hypertune mani isn't going to magically add 80ish WHP over what he has, LOL. The banjo at the fuel filter is only holding him back if it's an actual restriction and they had to stop tuning at that point due to going lean. It doesn't make power by swapping out to a higher flowing fitting. That said, it's good to get rid of that banjo for future needs.

I still think something else is up, but we need to see logs. Or perhaps a yellow oil filler cap will help. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hsugh.gif
 
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slugsgomoo

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Oct 16, 2003
Messages
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Tacoma, WA
taking advice from a guy with a bone stock car who slings super expensive JDM parts about how to solve the problem = win.

Remember, stock heat shields are aluminum. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hsdunno.gif
 

G

Staff member
Joined
Feb 24, 2004
Messages
8,896
Location
zompton
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif Ok ok you got me, I should have recommended something jdm. Go with a jun instead.

Whoa whoa, I have another vr-4 that makes decent power (365 on e3b16g). Way off topic though sorry OP.
 
Last edited:

thruarod

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Joined
May 31, 2013
Messages
53
Location
Ogdensburg NJ
Friend of mine made 705 on a stock throttle body. Just something to consider before spending money on one.
 

CutlassJim

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Jul 17, 2006
Messages
1,696
Location
Manchester, NH
Checking compression is a good start and easy to do. I am a huge ER nutswinger but are you sure the tune is a max effort endeavor? Maybe it's pretty conservative on timing for the average customer? The "custom" intake manifold raised a red flag for me but it ends up it's not custom at all just after market so as long as it's an actual JMF it should be OK.
 

89Patches

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Jan 30, 2013
Messages
723
Location
Ontario Canada
Is this the new FP Red or the old school one? 384 whp/ 312 tq @ 21psi on 92 pump seems like good numbers for this turbo and setup of yours at those boost levels.

As for your Q16 numbers as slugsgomoo said "What's the limiting factor in your tune (boost/timing/fuel)" TBH I have never personally seen a FP Red powered car make over 460 whp. Sure guys have done it but that turbo would maxed out putting down 550 whp and they're setup is probably based solely around that turbo squeezing out every bit of lbs/min they can. I also have never seen a Mitsu style housing make more the 500 whp, the only turbo's that have have all been in a FP30-35 bolt on housings.

As for the 2G manifold being a restriction, Well I run an ported Evo 3 manifold that came off of someone else's car that switch to a FP manifold and they only picked up 1-2lbs/min compared to the Evo/2G manifold. Oh also they're car also ran a FP Red (Non HTA) as well. Never been dyno'ed but judging by his trap speeds it safe to say his car probably makes in the area of 420 whp @ 30psi on pump.

Honestly those numbers your car put down don't seem off to me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
 

presterone

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Joined
Jan 23, 2012
Messages
514
Location
brunswick maine
Log injector duty do a reverse bsfc and it will probably make sensr the power you made. Also consider if it was a dyno jet your car would have that "puff" number added to it and it would make you happy and make your dong larger.
 

Rallytimebitches

Active member
Joined
Oct 12, 2010
Messages
36
Location
woodinville, Wa
Excellent. I will check out the hypertune mani/ tb combo then, guess you're right about the intake side being a bottleneck. Is the hypertune twice as good as the Magnus v3 cast aluminum intake mani? Should I go for the large port and a 90mm tb? I see why the 1g tb is a bottleneck now, when it can be replaced with a 90mm paired with a well designed intake manifold. The goal would be to eventually make 650-700whp down the road. But for now, my goal is to reach at least 500whp without completely gutting my current setup, or spending too much money.

So thus far I know what I need to address on the intake side and the fuel filter AN fitting conversion. I'm sure I could do another boost leak test and fix the minor exhaust leak at the wastegate. I'm going to try to keep the 2g ported exhaust mani for now, or at least until I step up to a bigger turbo.

Thus far the drivetrain combo is built up enough to handle quite a bit of power. Rebuilt tranny and tcase with cryo'd gears; 4 bolt rear.

Thanks for your help. Any other suggestions on how to get any last bit of power from this setup? I think my intercooler could be more efficient.
 

EHmotorsports

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Sep 25, 2012
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1,278
Location
Beaverton
you must not have read everyone's post about not needing a bigger TB or intake. its not needed....
 

362Ryan

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Aug 9, 2013
Messages
116
Location
Alaska
Did you ask Lucas what/if any issues he was seeing?
 
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slugsgomoo

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Oct 16, 2003
Messages
3,770
Location
Tacoma, WA
If you're going to spend $2000 don't waste it on that stupid manifold, when you could get an FP HTA3586 or HTA3794 for the same price and make metric shitloads more power than the manifold.

Testing says the magnus cast manifold makes the most power at full kill, but even that isn't going to make you 80WHP on an FP Red, even going from a stock manifold, even if it were a 2g tiny plenum piece of sh*t. There is no possible way your intake is your restriction at this power level. Post the logs & sheets.

G: what turbo/fuel did you make 365AWHP on?
 

jnava

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Apr 18, 2008
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Arlington, Tx
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif
 
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