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E85 and the cold

prove_it

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Sioux Falls, SD
I was wondering if anyone had any idea as to running E85 in the winter. It gets cold around here and I have been trying to find info on how cold of ambient air temp is too cold for safe running on E85. I know once the engine is at full operating temp all should be well, but what about fuel drop out when first starting the car. By the way it can get down to -40 around here at times. Usually around 0 as an average for a month.
 

prove_it

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Fuel drop out is mostly a V8 carb issue where during cold starts the fuel molecules will "drop out" of the air mixture due to low air temps and low air velocity. This causes puddling of fuel behind the valve and an incomplete combustion. Fuel injection pretty much took care of this by atomizing the fuel so fine with injectors. I'm just curious if E85 could do the same or something similiar when used in cold climates. Since how E85 is such a "cold" fuel that is.
 
Last edited:

324vr4

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Bozeman, Montana
Just under the assumption that they still continue to sell it at the pump in these temperatures, I'd say its still suitable for use during below zero weather...it will not gel up like diesel but being a vegetable variant, it might...if your gas station attendants are anything like the one's out in Montucky I'd imagine they wouldn't know...hmmmm good question tho :p
 

Hertz

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It's alcohol, not petroleum, so can't really draw a comparison with diesel.

click

Sounds like maybe just toss in a few gallons more dinosaur and you're safe.
 

thecman02

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Kalamazoo,MI
That and it is already watered down with gas to e70 in winter anyways. You can always blend a little more gas in. I've had slightly slower starts on e85 last year on some of the 0 degree nights, but it always started. I don't know about -40.
 

prove_it

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Sioux Falls, SD
Well at -40 I sit my ass inside and I don't start. Nevermind the car. I refuse to start at -40. Anyways what about a forged engine running E85 starting in the cold?

Also would a block heater be beneficial?
 

mitsu90

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Illinois
There is a chart somewhere in the net that lists the E85 winter blends.
 

thecman02

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I would think a block heater would be mandatory at those temps.
 

prove_it

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Sioux Falls, SD

CarRacer

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Shakopee, MN
I'd be careful about basing your tuning settings solely on those numbers from the chart. A few locals were running gauges from somewhere that determined the blend of the ethanol that was going through the motor. They noticed that the mix tended to lag behind the chart as the gas wasn't purchased quickly enough to empty the tank to coincide with the change overs.
 

prove_it

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Right, good point. I already took that into consideration. Nice thing is I live in the E85 capitol of the world. On some streets there can be anywhere's from 2-8 stations with E85. I'll be in contact with station managers for details. Also here at work I have access to a fuel analyser so I can check the exact content whenever I want.
 

jepherz

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Well, technically Minnesota is the leading E85 state, but who's counting /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 

prove_it

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Ok ok ok details details details, this area is leading the way. There how's that.
 

ctm

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Dec 31, 2007
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SoCal
Do you have a garage? If so, then why not just insulate it and/or use a heater to maintain higher ambient temps.

If you park your car outside, some simple adjustments include using "hotter" plugs or increase their gap closer to the manufacturer's maximum, raising fuel pressure (see more below), perhaps a leaner AFR, etc.

If none of the above will do, then can you detail the extent to which your concern about "drop out" applies to our EFI cars (with stock ECU or DSMLink)? Is the concern specific to how cold temps affect:
1) injector flow/spray capabilities? I am not sure that the effect, if any, is substantial, especially when the fuel pump and injectors have been upgraded;
2) TB/intake flow? With the ECU or DSMLink's ability to adjust timing and fuel relative to the amount of air the MAS sees, the level of knock detected, etc., is low temp, air flow velocity at start up really that much of a concern? Velocity becomes more of a a factor when you get going, particularly when trying to make more power or achieve greater response
3) e85 fuel freezing? Likely not a concern considering the properties of the ethanol and gas in the mixture.
4) vaporization or fuel volatility? Now this IS an issue. Ethanol has a flash point of ~55 deg F (12.7 deg C), so below that it will does not produce a flammable fuel air mixture. The 15% gas in e85 helps to address this issue. At even colder temps, adding more gas (1-2 gallons per tank of e85) should do the trick.

Other cold start concerns could perhaps be addressed by using the appropriate grade of oil, a high CCA battery, and as someone suggested a block heater. Otherwise, make it a movie on demand night ;-)
 

OMFGeofffff

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Burnsville, MN
Quoting jepherz:
Well, technically Minnesota is the leading E85 state, but who's counting /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif



Hmm. This sounds good to me!
 
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