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Weird clutch failure *Update with Carnage Pictures*


TakumiJr
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 770460 posted 03/18/09 01:09 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
My car been down to a weird clutch failure, I took it for a drive one night because I was bored with my civic. I was going down the road in second gear and all of a sudden while in gear the car just REVS. Pulled over, check everything over, there's still pedal feel, fluids still in the system, will go into gear but will not move, and there is no weird noises. I ruled out clutch master cylinder and slave because if they failed wouldn't there be no pedal feel? I was thinking either the rivets on the puck clutch failed or something odd. I'm here asking to see if anyone has experienced something of this nature? I want to save the hassle of buying a new complete clutch kit and returning it.



In fo on the car are 2.3 liter stroker with a 60trim turbo, ACT 2900LB with 6puck unsprung disc. The clutch setup has a little over 1000 miles on it. The car put down a lot of torque, 501awtq on a mustang dyno two weeks prior to the failure.


*Update with pictures*

Sorry for the bad camera pictures,






Thanks,

Tak.



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Edited by TakumiJr (05/12/09 09:08 PM)

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 770471 posted 03/18/09 01:26 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
did you break something in the drivetrain? It sounds kinda weird.



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TakumiJr
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 770474 posted 03/18/09 01:35 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
That was the next thing if my tranny just died, but it is a new tranny. Don't think its my transfer case, if so I would have power to the front. Nor the center diff because there's no god awful noises either.



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Brianawd
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 770479 posted 03/18/09 01:52 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I would say stripped splines on the disc. It happened on my girlfriends act 2600 with a unsprung 6puck.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 770484 posted 03/18/09 01:59 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
axle pop out a little? check that



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 770486 posted 03/18/09 02:03 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I would say it is unlikely the clutch. There is really no way for it to fail in the way that it works perfect then all of a sudden has no power transfer without making god-awful noises in the process. If a rivet failed, disk material fell off, or the center splines to the input shaft stripped you would be hearing some nasty nasty sounds.

I would you had some sort of driveline failure, or as GTluke suggested, maybe an axle shaft is popped out just enough to let one end freewheel. If you have an open center diff, the car would just free rev.



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TakumiJr
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 770487 posted 03/18/09 02:04 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting Brianawd:

I would say stripped splines on the disc. It happened on my girlfriends act 2600 with a unsprung 6puck.





This is what a few people have told me, was her symptoms similar to mine?



I checked the axles, they are fully intact.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 770499 posted 03/18/09 02:24 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Like he said it's weird that you didn't hear anything. No loud bangs huh? What about the shifter cables, check and make sure they are actually moving at the trans. They could have failed somehow and your just stuck in neutral.



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TakumiJr
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 770502 posted 03/18/09 02:30 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

Like he said it's weird that you didn't hear anything. No loud bangs huh? What about the shifter cables, check and make sure they are actually moving at the trans. They could have failed somehow and your just stuck in neutral.





There was no loud bang noise even though my car is noisy being gutted, I would notice a really loud noise. I've had numerous drivetrain issues with other dsm, but nothing like this before. The cables are fine as they are new, the car WILL go into every gear but nothing happens at all.



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Edited by TakumiJr (03/18/09 02:33 PM)

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ktmrider
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 770530 posted 03/18/09 03:54 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Interesting...
Local guy had a tranny seal fail and coat the disc/PP in oil. Any fluids dripping or visible from the inspection cover?



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 770546 posted 03/18/09 04:55 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
This is a crazy problem. Hate to say it but you might end having to do a tear down. In my friends civic he would snap the input shaft clean. It would do the same thing, but this was under an anti-lag launch, and it made a huge bang, then would do the same thing your is. Again there was a big noise though.

It's possible that you did cover the friction disc in fluid, but with that heavy of a pressure plate, wouldn't the car move even a little bit?

Does the car even feel like it's trying to move when you put it in gear and give it a little gas?



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 770565 posted 03/18/09 05:57 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

This is what a few people have told me, was her symptoms similar to mine?




We were driving down the freeway. Come to a a hill and gave it some gas. Half way up the hill the car just free revved and would not move. Made now sounds at all. Its like we were sitting there in neutral.
If it was a axle that popped out you would know right away. There would be tranny fluid on the ground in a big puddle.
Like other people have said it could be in the trans. Put the car on jack stands and start turning the wheels. Do that and go through all the gears. Make sure you have some on hold the clutch in.



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11.1at131 562awhp/484awtq
E85 FP3052 parted out
05 EB EVO SSL 11.48at124mph
450awhp/400awtq New 2.3 e85 hks 7460r
05 JEEP liberty CRD DD/ski slut
200hp/385tq



Edited by Brianawd (03/18/09 06:00 PM)

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TakumiJr
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 770645 posted 03/18/09 10:17 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting prove_it:

This is a crazy problem. Hate to say it but you might end having to do a tear down. In my friends civic he would snap the input shaft clean. It would do the same thing, but this was under an anti-lag launch, and it made a huge bang, then would do the same thing your is. Again there was a big noise though.

It's possible that you did cover the friction disc in fluid, but with that heavy of a pressure plate, wouldn't the car move even a little bit?

Does the car even feel like it's trying to move when you put it in gear and give it a little gas?




There's no visual oil, the car does not move at all (like its in neutral)


Quote:

We were driving down the freeway. Come to a a hill and gave it some gas. Half way up the hill the car just free revved and would not move. Made now sounds at all. Its like we were sitting there in neutral.




Sounds identical to my problems, when the spline on the disc is damage. Is the spline on the tranny damage also? Would I need to replace the spline on the tranny (input shaft?)


Thanks for the help from everyone!



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Dialcaliper
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 770682 posted 03/19/09 12:18 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Something on your clutch disc may have come apart or stripped, or the input shaft is damaged. Alternatively, you might have stripped your 3rd gear/center diff. I assume you're using a built transmission? - be careful revving it too high in case the clutch decides to throw some parts out of the bellhousing. With that kind of torque, a "bonded" clutch disc is usually a must - the riveted types can shear off, and you may have just gotten lucky that part of your clutch didn't take a vacation.

A couple other things to check:

Unbolt the flywheel inspection cover and get up there with a mirror and flashlight to check for oil in the clutch and bellhousing. Your sense of smell will also help if you pick up the scent of burnt oil. Have someone else rotate the crank pulley and make sure there are no broken springs or loose/broken hardware on the pressure plate.

More two person jobs:

Make sure the slave and clutch fork are moving properly when the clutch pedal is depressed

Check that the shifter levers on the tranny move properly when you put the car in gear - does it actually feel like it's going into gear?

Put the car in each gear and try to push it (or get people to rotate all 4 wheels at the same time) - if it still moves like it's in neutral, you can isolate your search to the clutch and transmission. Also, try the turning the crank with a breaker bar with it in and out of gear and the clutch in and out, and listen for any funny noises. If everything is loose and the crank spins like it's in neutral, than it's definitely the clutch or input shaft, and you'll need to pull the transmission.

Fatigue failure can be a funny beast - a part can withstand plenty of abuse and form a crack, but not fail completely - as it gets worse, it takes less and less force to continue opening the crack because the part gets weaker and weaker, and the eventual failure can happen even though it withstood much higher loads previously. This is most often how things fail on cars - complete and catastrophic failure from a true overload is much less common.

The input shaft is pretty suspect due to the fact you're running a solid disc - with no springs to dampen out the shock loads and speed changes, it sees a lot of abuse.

If its the clutch, you might want to consider a twin plate - that's a lot of torque to be asking of a single plate clutch, even a heavy one. (A 2900 pound clutch can only take 10-12% more torque than a 2600lb for example)



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Edited by Dialcaliper (03/19/09 12:36 AM)

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TakumiJr
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 770806 posted 03/19/09 10:57 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
^ Thanks for the great info. Yes, I'm using a built tranny actually a mangus dogbox gearset short ratio. One of the reason why I do not want to look into twin discs, but looking into the ACT 3200lb clutch though.


Yes it does feel like it goes into gear, the lever on the tranny moves. I can push the car back and forth in any gear. Actually I went outside and started it up, theres a tiny bit of a rattle when I throw it into gear not much though.


I'm going to remove the trans in the upcoming weeks, all this info does help me. I do have a spare rebuilt trans just incase, but I really don't know want to buy a whole new clutch kit if I don't need to.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 770814 posted 03/19/09 11:16 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
good luck!



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TakumiJr
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 770817 posted 03/19/09 11:21 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Thanks I'll need it! No more 2 hr traffic in this thing anymore, I think that what probably caused it.



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bruce988jl
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 770878 posted 03/19/09 02:21 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting TakumiJr:

I'm going to remove the trans in the upcoming weeks, all this info does help me. I do have a spare rebuilt trans just incase, but I really don't know want to buy a whole new clutch kit if I don't need to.




Wait.. you mean the one that you just gave me...
haha

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TakumiJr
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 791336 posted 05/12/09 09:07 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
So finally got a chance to get the tranny apart. Found the problem why the clutch stopped working, apparently the rivets on the hub all got snapped off.


Sorry for the bad camera pictures,






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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 791348 posted 05/12/09 09:24 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Act ftw?



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TakumiJr
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 791352 posted 05/12/09 09:32 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
^ And I don't think its even worth calling ACT to complain.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 791374 posted 05/12/09 09:54 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I would say its from the Dyno run, Ive seen Rotary cluches that have twisted, Belled and Elongated the holes so the centre comes loose.

Once the Rivet holes have torn up, Its just a matter of time. The Dyno has no friends.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 791495 posted 05/13/09 12:40 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting TakumiJr:

^ And I don't think its even worth calling ACT to complain.




I have heard of and seen worse that they have replaced. But you never know unless you try.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 791716 posted 05/13/09 11:47 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Looking at those pictures, If you don't find anything else wrong, My guess is that your input shaft might have been misaligned when transmission was reinstalled, or else something wasn't torqued on properly

The rivets that hold the hub to the disc are plenty strong in shear (the rotation direction), but with a bit of misalignment, you start introducing tension loads in the rivets as the disc spins off-axis, which they aren't really designed for. The tension loads eventually caused either the rivets to stretch, or the hub around the rivets to warp.

At that point, the rivets start taking engine torque directly instead of the hub being clamped in place by friction, and the holes in the disc became elongated, making the problem worse. The more the rivets are allowed to tilt, the more load that gets applied to them.

One characteristic of ductile materials like steel is that after they start yielding (permanent stretching, not the kind of "elastic" stretch that you get in a guitar string or rubber band), they become stronger, requiring even more force to stretch them further. (This is how torque-to-yield bolts work). Eventually, the rivets get stretched to the breaking point and shear off one at a time. If that's the way it happened, it might make sense that it didn't fail immediately.

That's my theory anyway. I'm guessing pin stretch, has been a problem for ACT - if you look on the new website, all of their solid clutch discs now have 16 rivets instead of 8, and the hub size has been increased.

The good news is that if you call and complain about a hub failure, and specifically mention that your disc only had 8 rivets instead of 16 like the new ones, they might replace it for you. Just be careful to align the transmission properly when you reinstall it, and make sure that the input shaft isn't warped or something.



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Edited by Dialcaliper (05/13/09 01:32 PM)

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TakumiJr
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 792103 posted 05/14/09 05:31 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
^ Thanks for the input, sounds about right. Everything got put back together yesterday, so far so goood



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