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Re: What is the best 272 cam out there?


EHmotorsports
Capt Fabbin Stabbin
1865/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1217507 posted 09/28/15 05:45 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      



click

Posts: 1278 | From: Beaverton | Member Since: 09/26/12 | IP: (73.25.187.251) | Report this post to a Moderator

GSTwithPSI
A hole
820/1000
1837/2000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1217523 posted 09/28/15 08:10 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I'm just giving Ryan a hard time.

The machinist thread he was referring to was linked in my post a while back (3 of them actually). They outline everything he referenced in his post.



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slugsgomoo
god hates stupid people
461/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1217538 posted 09/29/15 01:19 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
i sold a motor to a friend years ago with 264/272 HKS's, and it had crower springs with Ti retainers. He did a 3->2 shift accidentally at ~9k and DSMLink only reads to 12,500... where it flatlined for over 1sec. Chucked rockers through the valve covers, etc. Got towed home, pulled the vc off and everything looked fine. replaced rockers, new timing belt & tensioner, new vc gasket, and did compression & leakdown tests and the motor was solid.

You may say "upgraded valvetrain" and yes, you're right, but that's way, way more abuse than going to 7500 on stock springs These things are pretty damn stout.



-andrew
{witty signature}
#461 Kensington Grey - 2.4L/T67/etc
2015 Triumph Tiger 800 XCx
2014 Ford Focus ST

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turbowop
Hard Snarker
1051/2000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1217539 posted 09/29/15 01:30 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Of all the people that I've known over the years that have played with these engines, I know not a single person that has bent a valve or had some other issue due to using 272's on stock springs. I must be CRAY



-Mark

A face only a grocery shopper could love.
1051

Posts: 11965 | From: Yakima, WA | Member Since: 04/29/01 | IP: (71.83.231.158) | Report this post to a Moderator

EfiniX
Member ++
543/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1217540 posted 09/29/15 02:10 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting EHmotorsports:






Seriously



RIP 543
Ded click
2006 Suzuki SV-650 (for sale)
2011 BMW 335d (~510'lb/tq and 36mpg. hwy. How can you go wrong?)

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prove_it
my racist jokes aren't actually funny
715/1000
1284/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1217546 posted 09/29/15 09:06 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting turbowop:

Of all the people that I've known over the years that have played with these engines, I know not a single person that has bent a valve or had some other issue due to using 272's on stock springs. I must be CRAY




I have. Again, it was an overrev from a bad shift. Valves floated and took out all 16 valves plus ruined the pistons.

Mark, you are right that it does work, but I'm merely trying to state the fact that it can be done, but if your building the head it's foolish not to invest $200 bucks to prevent an issue. Just because YOU haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Your the one person I've known that has gotten away with stock parts successfully where countless others fail. Your quite special somehow.

And yes, yes you are CRAY. We all know that.

Brett, I know your just giving poo. I'm surprised my mom hasn't been mentioned yet.



#1284/2K NB, Totaled
#715/1K KG, Rebuilding
02 Acura TL daily duty unit

12yr+ Vr4 owner.
Honda/Acura master tech.
Family Guy

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turbowop
Hard Snarker
1051/2000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1217550 posted 09/29/15 09:57 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Again, I'm just giving a data point. I don't disagree that you may as well upgrade if already building the head.



-Mark

A face only a grocery shopper could love.
1051

Posts: 11965 | From: Yakima, WA | Member Since: 04/29/01 | IP: (2600:100f:b00f:e) | Report this post to a Moderator

donniekak
Member ++


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1217585 posted 09/29/15 05:04 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
With a brand new Oem head I couldn't run more than about 32 psi with my fp red. At that level I would float exhaust valves from the back pressure reducing the effective seat pressure of the springs. With some new bc springs I could hit 40 psi with no float.

Posts: 747 | From: surprise az | Member Since: 01/01/09 | IP: (97.124.17.161) | Report this post to a Moderator

marvinmadman
Senior Member
136/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1217586 posted 09/29/15 05:07 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
What about the rest of your exhaust at that time?



1982/2000 sold
1263/2000 parts
136/1000 work n progress
08 ZX14
10 Ford Flex TT/AWD
05 Galant GTS

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donniekak
Member ++


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1217587 posted 09/29/15 05:18 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
What do you mean? The only thing I changed was the springs, I didn't even take the head off the car.

The exhaust setup was a bep cast manifold with an external 38mm gate, tubular o2, and full straight through 3" exhaust.

Posts: 747 | From: surprise az | Member Since: 01/01/09 | IP: (97.124.17.161) | Report this post to a Moderator

turbowop
Hard Snarker
1051/2000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1217588 posted 09/29/15 05:28 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
That's a lot of backpressure if it's holding open valves, no? That just goes to show how inefficient that turbo was using the MHI exhaust housing. While I'm sure going to stiffer springs helped, I'm guessing a newer tech turbo with a higher flowing exhaust housing would have cured that as well. Interesting though.



-Mark

A face only a grocery shopper could love.
1051

Posts: 11965 | From: Yakima, WA | Member Since: 04/29/01 | IP: (71.83.231.158) | Report this post to a Moderator

marvinmadman
Senior Member
136/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1217590 posted 09/29/15 05:29 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
You answered it. I was wondering if you had a restrictive exhaust. Obviously stiffer springs would've helped that, but that would've just masked the actual problem.



1982/2000 sold
1263/2000 parts
136/1000 work n progress
08 ZX14
10 Ford Flex TT/AWD
05 Galant GTS

Posts: 2354 | From: Lafayette, Louisiana | Member Since: 11/10/03 | IP: (70.196.138.170) | Report this post to a Moderator

marvinmadman
Senior Member
136/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1217591 posted 09/29/15 05:31 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Wop and I just became best friends



1982/2000 sold
1263/2000 parts
136/1000 work n progress
08 ZX14
10 Ford Flex TT/AWD
05 Galant GTS

Posts: 2354 | From: Lafayette, Louisiana | Member Since: 11/10/03 | IP: (70.196.138.170) | Report this post to a Moderator

marvinmadman
Senior Member
136/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1217593 posted 09/29/15 05:39 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Also. Donniekak, which year model or exact version FP Red this was?



1982/2000 sold
1263/2000 parts
136/1000 work n progress
08 ZX14
10 Ford Flex TT/AWD
05 Galant GTS


Edited by marvinmadman (09/29/15 05:40 PM)

Posts: 2354 | From: Lafayette, Louisiana | Member Since: 11/10/03 | IP: (70.196.138.170) | Report this post to a Moderator

donniekak
Member ++


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1217594 posted 09/29/15 06:24 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
The billet hta76. It would blow open a 16psi waste gate at around 28 psi. Using the top port of the gate to run more boost would end up floating valves.

It doesn't take much back pressure to reduce the effective seat pressure to next to nothing on stock springs. Stock seat pressure is around 60 lbs. figure the exhaust valve is around 1in^2. So even at a decent drive pressure to boost ratio of 1.5 30 psi of boost would be 45 psi exhaust map, which brings the seat pressure to 15 lbs. That seat pressure isn't going to work.

Posts: 747 | From: surprise az | Member Since: 01/01/09 | IP: (97.124.17.161) | Report this post to a Moderator

turbowop
Hard Snarker
1051/2000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1217597 posted 09/29/15 07:06 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
That's pretty crazy, and something I've never thought about. While I've never worried about screwing up my valves due to running 272's on stock springs, the performance aspect of losing boost pressure due to them makes me take notice. Maybe someday I'll actually have a stock parts failure and be forced to rebuild and upgrade, and be able to note any differences.



-Mark

A face only a grocery shopper could love.
1051

Posts: 11965 | From: Yakima, WA | Member Since: 04/29/01 | IP: (71.83.231.158) | Report this post to a Moderator

trendsetter
Newbie


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1217696 posted 10/01/15 12:59 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
it sounds like the hks cams are pretty outdated and something that was designed in this century would be a much better option. more modern profiles tend to be more aggressive so they would probably need the upgraded springs. but i would bet you end up with more power under the curve over a lazier cam that doesnt need upgraded springs.

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thomcasey
I ain't no puny human
866/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1217703 posted 10/01/15 02:21 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
The upgraded springs are recommended due to them being over 20 years old. I would never think of running a 22 yr old valvetrain over 7k with stock cams. 272's are a good cam but do affect street drivability somewhat with how it effects low-end power, but you can make up for it (somewhat) with higher compression.



Thom
866/1000 (PTE 1200's, billet 20g+, DSMLink v3, eagle/ross, .020 over, 272's, GC/AGX Coilovers)

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GSTwithPSI
A hole
820/1000
1837/2000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1217711 posted 10/01/15 07:02 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I don't see how a cam profile can be outdated. What do we know about the 4G63 today that we didn't know 20 years ago in regard to cam design? It's not about the cam being outdated, IMO, it's about selecting the right cam for your application. Until you get into variable valve timing and such, you're just trying to get to cams with lobes that let you best use your engine's output/powerband for a given application. The HKS 272 (or 264) can cover a wide range of applications and perform well all around. That's why it's a popular choice with many people. It's not too extreme, yet it will yield good performance in a variety of applications.

Sure, I'd say there's a best cam for every application. But, it's up to the builder to select that cam based on the build, and what the car is being built for. There's no one size fits all, just like there's no drop in cam. Selecting the proper cam takes planning, and getting that cam to perform optimally takes proper setup and tuning. If you're not taking every aspect of your build and its intended use into consideration when you're selecting cams, you're doing it wrong.

There is no "best 272 cam out there"...Because what is best for you is probably not best for me or the next guy. The best cam out there is the one that works optimally in each specific application.



820/1000
1837/2000
1546/2000-SOLD
1813/2000-SOLD


Edited by GSTwithPSI (10/01/15 07:03 PM)

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turbowop
Hard Snarker
1051/2000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1217714 posted 10/01/15 07:38 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting thomcasey:

272's are a good cam but do affect street drivability somewhat with how it effects low-end power, but you can make up for it (somewhat) with higher compression.




503 had stock cams and an Evo3-16g. Having owned 503 and 1051 at the same time, I'd take the "laggy" power 1051 puts down anyday over 503.

This day in age, 272's are pretty mild. Much like the 20g was once considered a "race only" turbo, people run much larger stuff now on the street. Times have changed. But the HKS272 is still a good cam that makes power dropped in straight up.



-Mark

A face only a grocery shopper could love.
1051

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trendsetter
Newbie


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1218136 posted 10/08/15 11:26 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting GSTwithPSI:

I don't see how a cam profile can be outdated. What do we know about the 4G63 today that we didn't know 20 years ago in regard to cam design?



Im not sure how to even respond to that.
do you really think that cam design has not improved in the last 20 years? do you think there is nothing more to a camshaft than a duration and lift number?
there is a reason the comp cams catalog is almost 300 pages and there are hundreds of lobe profiles available.

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GSTwithPSI
A hole
820/1000
1837/2000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1218151 posted 10/08/15 01:23 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting trendsetter:

Im not sure how to even respond to that.
do you really think that cam design has not improved in the last 20 years? do you think there is nothing more to a camshaft than a duration and lift number?
there is a reason the comp cams catalog is almost 300 pages and there are hundreds of lobe profiles available.




You seem to be confusing selecting the proper camshaft design with actual camshaft design. Like I said, there are an immense number of variables that should be taken into account when choosing a camshaft. The same thing goes with camshaft design; each cam is designed to do a certain thing well. The simplicity of the camshaft is also its downfall, since no one lobe design is optimal for everything. That's exactly why the HKS 272 is a great camshaft, because its lobe design is a good compromise between "street and strip". This is also the entire reason many manufacturers now use camshafts in conjunction with some form of variable valve timing, to allow a cam to perform optimally across a wider range of conditions.

A camshaft lobe is just a ramp. It doesn't get much simpler than that. If you can explain to me how ramp design has technologically advanced over the last 20 years, I'd love to hear it. The HKS cam isn't outdated, and it never will be. It's designed to perform a certain way just like every camshaft made before it, and after it, has, and always will be.



820/1000
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1546/2000-SOLD
1813/2000-SOLD


Edited by GSTwithPSI (10/08/15 01:26 PM)

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4Grim
I deliver.
1948/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1218519 posted 10/14/15 09:12 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
I am running a set of DKS 272 (Yes you read that right..DKS) cams from FFWD DKS camshafts . 2 big reasons I decided to go with them...

-They are really affordable
-Couple local DSM guys made VERY good power with them for more than 5+ years at the HP goals I want.

Their website is pretty detailed about them..but they are regrinds to emulate HKS cams specs. I can't give you a full review of them from my personal setup since the car isn't tuned correctly. I basically did my research and asked alot of questions with the local DSM owners who are running them...and the consensus are all positive experiences.



91 GVR4 1948/2000
96 Galant 5sp DOHC 4G64T
2002 Montero Limited
1998 Montero "Winter Package"




Edited by 4Grim (10/14/15 09:14 AM)

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