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Help with knock. (Making progress)


James
Does lots of head


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1100947 posted 01/02/13 02:29 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Ok. This has been an on going problem for a while. For SOMR reason MMCD logger is showing 0-46 counts of knock depending on load. This can be at idle giving it a free rev or under normal cruising condition also during WOT pulls. As it appears on the logger... RPMs go up->knock comes on->timing is cut back to 7-10.

I knew the lifters were super loud. I replaced the knock sensor. I did all of the cheap tricks to get rid of phantom knock. Today I replaced the lifters and it sounds much better. Also driving it feel amazing again. But I hooked up the logger only to see the same things as before. Only difference I see is the timing isn't being set back as much as before (probably why it feels better). During two logs of WOT pulls the most it was set back was 18-22 degrees at 45 counts of knock.

Now I know I can buy a EPROM ECU and chip it to ignore the knock but I don't want to patch the problem I want to fix it.

2g MAF/550cc injectors/SAFC2.

The SAFC is set to +6% low throttle/+9% high throttle.

Low fuel trim- 96
Medium fuel trim-97
High fuel trim-85

Now I know that the high fuel trim is a little low but when I adjusted the SAFC to add more fuel at high throttle and it started breaking up. Thats where I'm at right now.

If you need any other values let me know!



1990 Summit White Galant GSX
Chipped EPROM ECU/2g maf/550cc injectors/3in exhaust /E316G/FMIC/Wally255/AeromotiveAFPR/lower shores MBC


Edited by James (01/07/13 10:44 PM)

Posts: 1322 | From: Port richey Florida | Member Since: 04/08/12 | IP: (68.200.64.80) | Report this post to a Moderator

5OF2k
Member ++
5/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1100958 posted 01/02/13 03:18 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Couple things to look into also. Check your knock sensor for gooey stuff inside, right where the plug connects. If its in there, you need a new sensor. Id also recommend pulling the knock sensor and wrapping the threads in teflon tape, a couple times. That will insulate the sensor and help determine if the knock is something factual or simply a faulty sensor.

Next, get rid of the SAFC. Its funny how you mention noth "patching" but fixing, yet are using a device thats designed to FOOL the ECU from seeing the true volume of air the car is seeing pass its vital sensors. SAFCs are a bust in my opinion, and I dare say youre far better off using a GM MAF/Trans than you are using an SAFC.

Hope that helps!

-Jake



1993 Talon TSI, FPgreen DD
1957 VW Beetle Sedan Deluxe
1997 Civic EX, B18c/5lug swapped
2002 Yamaha Fz-1
Looking for another GVR4, or 5/2000...PM!

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turbowop
Hard Snarker
1051/2000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1100959 posted 01/02/13 03:22 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Adding fuel won't bring up your hi fuel trim. You need to take out fuel. The trim is saying that the ECU is trying to remove fuel. Adding more will only exacerbate that.

The SAFC works fine for what he's trying to do. It's only a matter of fine tuning since he's using a 2gMaf/550 combo. For anything needing large adjustments, there are much better alternatives to the SAFC.



-Mark

A face only a grocery shopper could love.
1051


Edited by turbowop (01/02/13 03:23 PM)

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James
Does lots of head


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1100960 posted 01/02/13 03:25 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Everyone can argue SAFC good or bad and nobody will ever win that argument. It's a near stock setup and the SAFC. Does what I need it to.

I mentioned already doing the cheap tricks to nullify what te sensor hear, and I also mentioned getting a new knock sensor.

WOP- good point I guess I hada stupid moment, that's probably why it was breaking up



1990 Summit White Galant GSX
Chipped EPROM ECU/2g maf/550cc injectors/3in exhaust /E316G/FMIC/Wally255/AeromotiveAFPR/lower shores MBC

Posts: 1322 | From: Port richey Florida | Member Since: 04/08/12 | IP: (68.200.64.80) | Report this post to a Moderator

5OF2k
Member ++
5/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1100962 posted 01/02/13 03:30 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Cool cool, didnt mean to offend if thats the case. Im simply offering suggestions that i've used myself, as well as many many many many others over the years, that work.

-Jake



1993 Talon TSI, FPgreen DD
1957 VW Beetle Sedan Deluxe
1997 Civic EX, B18c/5lug swapped
2002 Yamaha Fz-1
Looking for another GVR4, or 5/2000...PM!

Posts: 664 | From: colorado springs, colorado | Member Since: 03/28/12 | IP: (140.32.120.188) | Report this post to a Moderator

James
Does lots of head


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1100986 posted 01/02/13 05:36 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
None taken. My ex dropped off my little one so I can't do to much more. I make the correct adjustments to the Safc in the morning but I don't think that's going to fix my issue.



1990 Summit White Galant GSX
Chipped EPROM ECU/2g maf/550cc injectors/3in exhaust /E316G/FMIC/Wally255/AeromotiveAFPR/lower shores MBC

Posts: 1322 | From: Port richey Florida | Member Since: 04/08/12 | IP: (68.200.64.80) | Report this post to a Moderator

matt92vr4
Member ++
474/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1101055 posted 01/02/13 11:55 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
45 counts of knock is ridiculous especially in neutral with no load. It can't be real. The only time I've seen this was with a very poorly built engine with the wrong piston sizes. What's the history of the engine?



474/1000 Summit White
1993 Stealth RT/TT
1995 Montero SR
1998 Montero

Posts: 676 | From: Venice, FL | Member Since: 10/03/10 | IP: (68.56.153.38) | Report this post to a Moderator

James
Does lots of head


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1101058 posted 01/03/13 12:13 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
History is unknown. Assumed to be swapped out of a 92 talon TSI awd. I know its not real knock, as I'm pretty sure a constant 45 counts of knock on 93oct and 10psi first off is not likely and if it did happen would problem grenade the motor a long time ago.

But I can't figure out what's causing it



1990 Summit White Galant GSX
Chipped EPROM ECU/2g maf/550cc injectors/3in exhaust /E316G/FMIC/Wally255/AeromotiveAFPR/lower shores MBC

Posts: 1322 | From: Port richey Florida | Member Since: 04/08/12 | IP: (68.200.64.80) | Report this post to a Moderator

James
Does lots of head


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1101202 posted 01/03/13 05:29 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Well it's relative to load/RPMs it seems.

I was at 2500 in third gear and floored it for a log. As soon as I hit the gas I see...
45 counts of knock/-2 timing
I held this till 2800 where I let off for a second and got back on it to see...
30 counts of knock/+10 timing
Repeat process at 3200 and see
20 counts of knock/+20 timing
Repeat at 3500 to see
0 knock/+40 timing


Does that mean anything to anyone? Or help at all?



1990 Summit White Galant GSX
Chipped EPROM ECU/2g maf/550cc injectors/3in exhaust /E316G/FMIC/Wally255/AeromotiveAFPR/lower shores MBC

Posts: 1322 | From: Port richey Florida | Member Since: 04/08/12 | IP: (68.200.64.80) | Report this post to a Moderator

James
Does lots of head


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1101489 posted 01/04/13 07:47 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Still looking for assistance here. Haven't figure out how to post a full log. So here's so key points I took a photo of.


This is just running through the gears. You see RPM/FTO2/KNOCK/TIME ADVANCE


This one is during a third gear pull starting around 3k




1990 Summit White Galant GSX
Chipped EPROM ECU/2g maf/550cc injectors/3in exhaust /E316G/FMIC/Wally255/AeromotiveAFPR/lower shores MBC

Posts: 1322 | From: Port richey Florida | Member Since: 04/08/12 | IP: (68.200.64.80) | Report this post to a Moderator

James
Does lots of head


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1101490 posted 01/04/13 07:48 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Pink: FTO2
RED: RPM
gray: knock
Purple: timing advance



1990 Summit White Galant GSX
Chipped EPROM ECU/2g maf/550cc injectors/3in exhaust /E316G/FMIC/Wally255/AeromotiveAFPR/lower shores MBC

Posts: 1322 | From: Port richey Florida | Member Since: 04/08/12 | IP: (68.200.64.80) | Report this post to a Moderator

James
Does lots of head


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1101644 posted 01/05/13 08:36 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Nothing eh?



1990 Summit White Galant GSX
Chipped EPROM ECU/2g maf/550cc injectors/3in exhaust /E316G/FMIC/Wally255/AeromotiveAFPR/lower shores MBC

Posts: 1322 | From: Port richey Florida | Member Since: 04/08/12 | IP: (166.147.121.148) | Report this post to a Moderator

turbowop
Hard Snarker
1051/2000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1101659 posted 01/05/13 09:29 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Hard to really tell what's going on with just a couple of screenshots, but 8 counts of knock ain't that bad.



-Mark

A face only a grocery shopper could love.
1051

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James
Does lots of head


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1101673 posted 01/05/13 10:21 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
But look at the knock line across the graph. Some spots it hits a steady 45 for 5-10 seconds lol.



1990 Summit White Galant GSX
Chipped EPROM ECU/2g maf/550cc injectors/3in exhaust /E316G/FMIC/Wally255/AeromotiveAFPR/lower shores MBC

Posts: 1322 | From: Port richey Florida | Member Since: 04/08/12 | IP: (166.147.121.156) | Report this post to a Moderator

matt92vr4
Member ++
474/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1101678 posted 01/05/13 10:35 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Don't know if this will help but... When we use to build new engines for an aem setup our first dyno runs would be at 0 boost. This would give us the engines natural noise counts and then we would set the actual knock parameters from there. To get 0 boost to redline we would have to run the air from the turbo to atmosphere while at the same time run pressure to open the wastegate so the turbo didn't spin crazy. Anyways every engine has a different natural noise that is not knock. Perhaps your engine is very noisy at the lower rpms.

I would try to clamp your wastegate open and run with 0 or close to 0 boost to see if you still get the knock counts. Have you tried to roll back timing or add race gas to see if it will go away?



474/1000 Summit White
1993 Stealth RT/TT
1995 Montero SR
1998 Montero


Edited by matt92vr4 (01/06/13 01:49 AM)

Posts: 676 | From: Venice, FL | Member Since: 10/03/10 | IP: (68.56.153.38) | Report this post to a Moderator

turbowop
Hard Snarker
1051/2000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1101706 posted 01/06/13 01:22 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
If you're seeing knock while just cruising at low rpm/tps, especially maxed out counts, then you're getting phantom knock. The only way to control this is with a custom chip or ECMlink so you can change the parameters at which the ECU ignores the knock sensor.



-Mark

A face only a grocery shopper could love.
1051


Edited by turbowop (01/06/13 01:22 AM)

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James
Does lots of head


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1101710 posted 01/06/13 02:04 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
In going to roll back the timing tomorrow because as you can see in another thread its set at +10 at idle. But I would think if this was the problem that it would cause knock all the time, as you can see in the WOT pull I can keep the knock down.


Wop- my next question was going to be... Is there some forms of phantom knock that are just impossible to make away? Where the chip is the only option? I wouldn't mind doing that but its just going to be a lot all at once. Needed to find a god EPROM ECU and getting it socketed the. Buying the chip. Sometimes I wish i would have just done that months ago instead of buying the SAFC



1990 Summit White Galant GSX
Chipped EPROM ECU/2g maf/550cc injectors/3in exhaust /E316G/FMIC/Wally255/AeromotiveAFPR/lower shores MBC

Posts: 1322 | From: Port richey Florida | Member Since: 04/08/12 | IP: (68.200.64.80) | Report this post to a Moderator

iceman69510 Galant VR4.org Moderator
Turn Right Racing
855/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1101751 posted 01/06/13 12:06 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Not in a location I can verify this at the moment, but isn't base timing +5*?



91 VR4 855 Nile Black
92 VR4 828 Belize Green-SOLD
91 VR4 115 Nile Black -SOLD

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ktmrider
Cool Guy Crowd


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1101753 posted 01/06/13 12:19 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting James:

In going to roll back the timing tomorrow because as you can see in another thread its set at +10 at idle. But I would think if this was the problem that it would cause knock all the time, as you can see in the WOT pull I can keep the knock down.


Wop- my next question was going to be... Is there some forms of phantom knock that are just impossible to make away? Where the chip is the only option? I wouldn't mind doing that but its just going to be a lot all at once. Needed to find a god EPROM ECU and getting it socketed the. Buying the chip. Sometimes I wish i would have just done that months ago instead of buying the SAFC


Your last sentence is what whop and others have been trying to get across since day 1.

Yes base timing is +5 degrees with DIAG port grounded.
SAFC only tweaks airflow, timing is not affected.
Timing on TEL/GVR4 4G63T engines is already agressive stock.
Using SAFC only some set base timing to +3 degrees.
1g versions suffer from Phantom Knock issues.
1g MAF units run out of metering capability around 15psi ( healthly intake system ie no leaks ).

You fell trap to common DSM/TEL/GVR4 suggestions. Do it right, do it once, beware the internet forum advice moving forward.



Mike O.
#464/1000 - Sold
05 Legacy GT - slush box
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matt92vr4
Member ++
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1101768 posted 01/06/13 01:41 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
If I remember correctly from my shop days, the SAFC does in fact increase timing indirectly at WOT. It fools the ECM into thinking less air is flowing and therefore the ECM will use the timing map for that particular false airflow amount (which is probably more timing). So, if your base timing is advanced and the SAFC is fooling the ECM to use a higher timing map, then this could produce your issue.

Still, 45 counts is ridiculous at 2500rpm. How much boost are you running? Let us know what happens when you set the timing back.



474/1000 Summit White
1993 Stealth RT/TT
1995 Montero SR
1998 Montero

Posts: 676 | From: Venice, FL | Member Since: 10/03/10 | IP: (68.56.153.38) | Report this post to a Moderator

turbowop
Hard Snarker
1051/2000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1101769 posted 01/06/13 01:53 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Yes, adjusting an SAFC can indirectly affect timing. If you're making large changes, adding airflow can put you into a lower timing map, and subtracting airflow can put you into a higher timing map.



-Mark

A face only a grocery shopper could love.
1051

Posts: 11965 | From: Yakima, WA | Member Since: 04/29/01 | IP: (71.92.106.100) | Report this post to a Moderator

James
Does lots of head


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1101787 posted 01/06/13 03:29 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Timing is set at 5, boost is WG pressure so about 10 psi. No change today. And I'm not using a 1g Maf I'm using a 2g. Getting the Safc was the suggestion from this very forum lol. 550cc inj 2g Maf and Safc to get the small tweaking between the two.



1990 Summit White Galant GSX
Chipped EPROM ECU/2g maf/550cc injectors/3in exhaust /E316G/FMIC/Wally255/AeromotiveAFPR/lower shores MBC

Posts: 1322 | From: Port richey Florida | Member Since: 04/08/12 | IP: (68.200.64.80) | Report this post to a Moderator

ktmrider
Cool Guy Crowd


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1101810 posted 01/06/13 05:51 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting James:

Getting the Safc was the suggestion from this very forum lol.


Yes that's why I said TEL/DSM/GVR4.

Interweb is just too saturated with heresay and bad advice. Heck the rumor for most Subaru and EVO site users is 20% aren't old enough to drive and another 40% don't own a vehicle and/or lie about mods. Actual owners generally have no clue how to even wrench. Many go on other sites then regurgitate info elsewhere to "appear" legit. And onward.

Put your car back to stock as much as possible ( injectors, MAF, ECU, boost, etc ). Get it running right then and only then MOD it right, ie Link or custom chip and related support items.



Mike O.
#464/1000 - Sold
05 Legacy GT - slush box
#86/2000 - Sold ( again )

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James
Does lots of head


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1101812 posted 01/06/13 05:54 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Posted a WTB for socketed EPROM hopefully with a chip already fitting my needs

Who's the big name chip maker these days? Noticed keydiver no longer makes em when I visited his site the other day.



1990 Summit White Galant GSX
Chipped EPROM ECU/2g maf/550cc injectors/3in exhaust /E316G/FMIC/Wally255/AeromotiveAFPR/lower shores MBC


Edited by James (01/06/13 05:56 PM)

Posts: 1322 | From: Port richey Florida | Member Since: 04/08/12 | IP: (68.200.64.80) | Report this post to a Moderator

matt92vr4
Member ++
474/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1101904 posted 01/07/13 10:13 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
I don't think the SAFC is the problem here. Do you have a WB o2 sensor? I'd like to see your AFR when it's knocking 45.



474/1000 Summit White
1993 Stealth RT/TT
1995 Montero SR
1998 Montero

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