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Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..


GeeRIDE
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 149131 posted 11/01/04 06:05 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Ya, I know I'll see full boost before 4000rpm, hopefully a bit closer to 3600 (when my green got full spool).. I think it being dual ball bearing It should be right around there.

I was just talking to Robert at RRE for a while about my turbo, and my center section has a built in oil restrictor and I buy this oil fitting for the oil feed

.. So as you can tell thats pretty restrictive and allows me to run oil from the filter housing regardless of how much pressure it puts out, that fitting, I guess you could say regulates how much is fed.

I wouldnt want to get any foreign shit(particles, etc) into that small of a hole from my head and risk starving my new precious.

I'll just run a 90* -4AN fitting from the above fitting to my normal oil feed line from the filter housing.

-Oh ya, its an anti-surge TO4E style compressor housing.. There are many diff. comp housings that are labled 'to4e',some are 3/4"in, 2/2.5"out this one happens to have a 4" inlet, 2" outlet.


Edited by GeeRIDE (11/01/04 06:11 PM)

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RayH
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 149137 posted 11/01/04 06:21 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I wonder how much it would cost to build an entirely self contained oil system for the turbo with a small electric pump, oil cooler, filter and reservoir. You would never have to worry about engine oil mixing with the turbo oil, could run different grades on each and change each independently.

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GeeRIDE
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 149138 posted 11/01/04 06:23 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Now that would be a great idea ^^^

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Bimmubishi
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 149142 posted 11/01/04 06:33 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Terren, most turbos have those built in. The only thing that regulates pressure with a system like that is the differential between the inlet and outlet. If the inlet was that size, and the outlet (the drain) were the same the pressure would be as high as the pressure goes for the oil system. Since the oil drains faster than it goes in it's roughly regulated by the diffenence in port sizes. Nothing too fancy but I guess it works.

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GeeRIDE
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 149144 posted 11/01/04 06:40 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
So do you think I would be ok with feeding it from the filter housing w/ the built in restrictor and the above fitting? Thanks Al, always a great help!

Here's a pic of the built in restrictor(blurry):


Outlet, appears to be mitsu style:

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Hksvr4
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 149146 posted 11/01/04 06:48 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

Outlet, appears to be mitsu style:



Im not sure bout that. The my rs52 was different, it is a garrett center section. I had to get a drain kit from agp. http://www.agpturbo.com/customer/product.php?productid=84&cat=84&page=1

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GeeRIDE
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 149149 posted 11/01/04 06:50 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Yay more money

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Bimmubishi
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 149152 posted 11/01/04 06:55 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Let's wait until tomorrow. Garrett owes me a call back on that subject. I'd rather not speculate.

Speaking with the aeroquip rep, the inline pre filter has to be cleaned out a lot, it's a race application which means teams clean the element after every race. It doesn't seem like a good road application.

Terren, let's wait for more from the horses mouth but your on the right track i think.

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GeeRIDE
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 149154 posted 11/01/04 06:56 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Sounds good, thanks alot

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GeeRIDE
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 149576 posted 11/03/04 01:09 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Any wise words Bim?

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Bimmubishi
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 149589 posted 11/03/04 04:39 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Terren I'll call today on the pressure. No one called me back.


AL

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Bimmubishi
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 151304 posted 11/08/04 08:20 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Terren et al.

Here's the straight dope from Garrett and Tial Sport.

The turbo wants and operates best at 30PSI oil pressure. That's correct, THIRTY. It will also work at up to 60 but the excessive pressure will slow the turbo's reaction. Tial Sport, who is one of the few exclusive distributors is working on a pressure limiting device and they will let me know asap when I can get some in at the shop. We should be among the first to know.

We are also working on a similar device that should go into testing within about 3 weeks.

As far as the other issues, I feel like I can now speak to those after talking with both Garrett engineers and Tial Sport who prepares ALMS, IMSA, Porsche GT1, GT2 and supplies many rally teams and has been working with Nissan for years (they have the experience) that the ball bearing turbos are no more succeptable to damage through contamination than are hydrodynamic bearing turbos (normal, bushing type)

So the facts are, in summary:

30psi optimum
Must be watercooled
the limiting orifice calculated by garrett is about 30thousands at the oil inlet at present.

Tial has yet to see damage through contamination and has been studying Nissan SR20 powered cars for several years as they are the first and only to do ball bearing as OEM.

That's all for now, I hope that helps.

AL

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keydiver
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 151321 posted 11/08/04 09:15 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
So, what that means is that the filter, which clogged and took out my turbo, isn't really necessary?

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Bimmubishi
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 151368 posted 11/09/04 04:39 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Right.

I can only guess that since it's a motorsport filter that it requires constant maintenance and that could be the problem. The requirement is 20 microns which is covered by the stock filter. Jeff, maybe something else was at play? Was it glass beaded at any time?

A

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BlackHole
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 151381 posted 11/09/04 06:34 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
AL,

Thanks for the good info.

Quote:

The turbo wants and operates best at 30PSI oil pressure. That's correct, THIRTY. It will also work at up to 60 but the excessive pressure will slow the turbo's reaction.




So where to plumb the oil feed? From the oil filter housing there will definitely be more than 60psi especially when cold, but from the head it will be a lot less than 30psi when hot. Hmmm... I'm hoping the AN-3 line feeding my BB turbo from the head is enough.

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Bimmubishi
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 151382 posted 11/09/04 06:37 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Kyle, I'd go off the head. I'm eager to see what Tial comes up with to control pressure. They kept assuring me that the turbo does not need a lot of oil pressure thus leading me to conclude that less, in this case should be more. Esp with synthetic oil....

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keydiver
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 151412 posted 11/09/04 08:57 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

Right.
Jeff, maybe something else was at play? Was it glass beaded at any time?
A



No, the stuff in the filter was definitely carbon-based contaminants. You could just rub it between your fingers and it would dissolve/disappear.
Now, knowing this, I may just spend the money for a new center-section, and try again, WITHOUT a filter.

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nrvous
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 151657 posted 11/09/04 09:19 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Although I am a nerd by profession, I work for a company that builds hydraulic and pnuematic systems. My initial reaction for controling pressure to the turbo is to look into a hydraulic pressure regulator or something that is already designed to do this. There are hundreds of setups available for making a bypass regulator valve or something to control the pressure at the turbo, without limiting volume through a pin hole.

-stephen



When this baby hits 88 miles per hour, your gonna see some serious shit. - doc brown

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GeeRIDE
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 151699 posted 11/09/04 11:02 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
From what I can see, the above fitting I posted is made to work with the built in oil restrictor that my GT30R has.. I understand that the filter housing can get to above 60psi, but I think that with the built in restrictor and this fitting I'll be fine running from the filter housing.

Maybe feeding from the head AND having this built in restrictor/fitting could actually be too restrictive, even though you're saying less may be better.. A friend of mine just told me he's tested the oil pressure from the head and got 20psi.

Im stuck on this and want to get the car back together

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Bimmubishi
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 151731 posted 11/10/04 04:53 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
We're designing a bypass valve just like you said using stock scientific industry components nervous.. That's right what I was thinking also.

Should be in testing once we get a quote on the valve itself which could be later this week.. just waiting right now.



Al

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GeeRIDE
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 152428 posted 11/11/04 08:30 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      

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Bimmubishi
giant log


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 152500 posted 11/12/04 04:37 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Terren, just hook it up. You have no idea how complicated this bypass system has to be in order to work and maintain oil pressure for the rest of the engine. It's going to be a while.

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GeeRIDE
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 152621 posted 11/12/04 12:33 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Haha, ok I'll just hook it up to the housing and hope for the best

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lambertvr4
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 152825 posted 11/13/04 08:54 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I don't know that feeding from the head is a good idea. It's the last place to get oil from and on startup that could be too late (or at least no benefit) for the turbo. I had a similar conversation at SEMA and was told to use a -3AN feed line from the oil filter housing to the turbo.

The thing that worries me about the restrictor fitting is the spray pattern out of it. If the feed line up to the fitting is 100psi (common at redline), the oil that comes out of that tiny hole could spray rather than pour. I know lots of people use this method with some success, so I can't discount it.

The oil at the filter housing is already filtered, but I'm not sure how fine the filtering is. I hope that if the Mobil 1 M105 is good enough for the engine, it's gotta be good enough for the turbo.

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mr.mitsu
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 580846 posted 12/23/07 10:24 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
Post deleted by Terry Posten

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