Swapped in HKS cams, now no compression / Cooling issue [BOTH RESOLVED]

[GSTwithPSI]

^Maybe...Swapping the 272s back in right now. I'll report back with an update.

Getting pretty damn good at swapping cams out though!

 

[jnava]

Lol

 

[coyotes]

Quoting jnava:
Issue resolved.



I'm curious/confused now. Are the valves not bent? Someone educate me.

 

[jnava]

Its muthafuking magic yotes, magic.

 

[donniekak]

Take the cams out, and remove the shrader valve from your compression tester. Screw the tester into each cylinder and the other end up to a compressor. If air is coming out the exhaust or intake port, you have bent valves.

 

[GSTwithPSI]

Alright. Well, still clueless. I solved one problem, but one still remains.

Juan is awesome. He suggested I test my compression tester. I should have thought to check something so simple, but it slipped my mind. I hooked it up to shop air, and the gauge was working fine. But, I did find a problem with the little schrader valve used to release the pressure in the gauge between tests. It was sticking open, and releasing the pressure. I'm guessing that's why the gauge was bliping quickly and then falling off when I was testing the car with the stock cams in last night. I plugged the schrader valve and the gauge is working fine now.

After I fixed the gauge, I ran another test on the car with the stock cams installed. 145ish across the board. I double checked each cylinder just to make sure. I'm thinking cool, at least the stock cams are reading like I would expect them to on a new motor with 500 break in miles on the clock. This pretty much confirms without a doubt that my timing is good, my rings are good, and there are no bent valves, right??

So, I swap the HKS 272s back in again, and run another test. Zero on all 4 cylinders. Not a f***ing bit of pressure in the cylinders. After I rolled zeros across the board again, I triple checked the compression gauge. I even adjusted my air regulator on the compressor up and down so I could see the gauge was actually reading accurate. The gauge is fine, but apparently, the car is not.

I'm relieved to know the car is fine with the stock cams. But, I'm not gonna roll around forever on stock cams, so I need to figure out WTF is going on. I'll just post up some more info in hopes that someone here can look at all the pieces, and maybe see something that I'm missing...

The cams are HKS 272s. I bought these used from Nate Crisman, who said they came out of his 92 AWD Auto track car.

The exhaust cam reads M006 (which correlates to a 272 from everything I can find).

The intake cam reads M 272. The 272 is engraved, like most other HKS cams I've ever seen.

The cylinder head rebuilt by Dale Morss Machine in Pensacola. He told me it was was hot tanked, passages cleaned, decked, 3 angle valve job, oil port mod, new valve seals, BC1100 valve springs, and upgraded manifold studs. I installed 3G revised lifters, and initially, the stock cams. The only thing I checked before I installed it was the deck surface. It checked out fine per the procedure I followed outlined in the FSM. Here are a few shots of the head before I installed it. Maybe someone can see something that looks off that maybe I didn't.

I'm at a loss here, guys. I'm still thinking I need to pull the head. I had a HKS 272/264 combo in 1813, and they ran in the car without issue. There are guys here on the board running 272s without issue, so I know there's something odd going on here. I can only figure the head is somehow out of spec. Why else would the HKS cams zero out my compression? Any suggestions would be awesome. Thanks in advance.

 

[jnava]

So many variables. It had compression with stock cams, just not with his hks. After re-installing them again. If valves were bent, compression would be fucked on both stock and the hks set.

 

[coyotes]

Do you have adjustable cam gears? it may be worth degreeing the cams to see where things are lining up, perhaps there is overlap that is preventing the valves from completely closing? This is out of my knowledge but just trying to help out.

Worth a watch:

1 click
2 click

maybe this can be of help to you

 

[strokin4dr]

Sorry to hear about the issues.

What ever happened to Bogus? It's like he dropped off the face of the earth. I was corresponding with him and planning to send a head out for some work and he stopped replying. I PM'd him again numerous times and tried calling him shop too. No answer, no response. Weird.

 

[GVR4kauai]

Hes on Dsmtuners all the time. I just got a head from him not to long ago. Ya bro that's good you got comp again with the stockers, its def helps to have tools that work properly when testing things like this lol. I always read that the hks 272's have much higher lobes than say bc or other 272's, and require upgrading springs and retainers. Maybe I read wrong seems to be mixed, just if you plan to rev high a lot to upgrade. But you said you have the upgraded bc springs same as I got since dale recommends them. Maybe there not enough for the hks cams.

 

[GVR4kauai]

Maybe you need to shim the lifters like the dks cams.

 

[GSTwithPSI]

Quoting GVR4kauai:
I just thought of something are you sure they aren't dks 272 not hks?



Unless DKS is spelled HKS, then yes, I'm sure...

Like I said, there are quite a few people running HKS cams without shims and other sh*t.

Quoting strokin4dr:
Sorry to hear about the issues.

What ever happened to Bogus? It's like he dropped off the face of the earth. I was corresponding with him and planning to send a head out for some work and he stopped replying. I PM'd him again numerous times and tried calling him shop too. No answer, no response. Weird.



IDK man. I actually was wondering the same thing. I had a buddy who is still in Pcola swing by his shop to see what was up. He said his shop was all dark and closed up. Usually Dale is always there with the doors open, working. He hasn't been on here or on T00ners since May or something (or at least that's according to his signature). I've hit up his cell and shop number...no answer.

 

[GVR4kauai]

Probably at the shootout this weekend!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Well pray he's alright and back at it soon! And ya I saw your pic if the clear hks after I wrote that lol.

 

[GSTwithPSI]

So, went back down to the garage to get some base circle measurements on both sets of cams (stock and HKS) in order to try and figure out some possible reason for what I'm experiencing. Both sets of cams measured out at 1.182". That really got me thinking about how in the hell I don't have compression with the HKS cams installed.

On a whim, I plugged the compression tester back in again, and crank the motor over. Apparently magic happened, and now all of a sudden I have compression. The first cylinder it tried (#4) read about 130 psi. So, I proceeded to test the remaining 3, getting similar results. All in all, about 130 across the board. It has been about 5 hours since my last test, so maybe I just needed to wait for the lifters to bleed down more.

Between a dicked up compression tester, and not waiting long enough for the lifters to bleed down...I'm not exactly sure where I went wrong. Somewhere in the midst of 3 camshaft swaps (Yeah, swapped between the stock and HKS cams 3 times), I misinterpreted what was going on. I suppose the solution here would be to wait 24 hours after you swap the cams in, like Juan suggested. I think that would ensure the lifters have adequate time to bleed down no matter what.

I will mark this thread resolved after I get the car back together and verify it actually runs. Until then, I just know the car seems to have compression with the HKS cams installed. I'll chalk this one up as a learning experience for sure. At least I can swap a set of cams out in under 30 min now /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[467]

Never Mind. Assuming valves aren't bent because you have normal compression with stock cam then I can think of only one issue that could cause this. The HKS cams are causing valves to not seat. Have you measured cam base circle and lift to see if it correlates to spec? (don't see how that would make much difference though). Put one plug at a time back in and try to see if/when the valves seat in relation to the compression and expansion stroke when turning engine over by hand?

 

[GSTwithPSI]

BTW, found these while I was derpin around looking for info on the web. Thought they might be useful:

264's


272's

 

[Wizardawd]

More than likely when you removed the cams, the lifters sucked in oil from the galleys and were locked in the full extended position. This will hold the valves slightly open. Not enough to bend valves (as long as your timing is on), but enough to have no to little compression. After some cycles of the motor, the lifters will eventually bleed down and return to normal. I've had this happen a few times, and after a few times, I just make it a habit of bleeding the lifters anytime the cams are removed.

I also run 272s with no shims in one of my cars.

Wiz

 

[prove_it]

Damn, wish I'd been on here this weekend buddy. I've down your same path. It's the injectors. I doubt believe in RRE's procedure fully. I ALWAYS pull lifters and bled them. Even with stock cam swaps. It's a way to verify that the lifters are good, plus reduces the chance of a bent valve. Had a buddy argue with me on it, then threw in some Kelford 280's waited a few hours, then started it. Bent 8 valves. I laughed, and said told you so. Bleeding the lifters while the cams are out takes 20 minutes. It gets the gunk out of them too.

I'm sure your good to go. Wish I could have chimed in earlier and saved you the grief you went through.

 

[GVR4kauai]

Which Is exactly why I said anytime you remove cams, bleed the lifters. When you know that they could possible cause a problem if not bleed. It only makes sense to me to take the 10-20min to bleed them. Isn't that way less time and hassle than waiting 24 hours and hoping they bleed down! Lol

 

[manikbastrd]

Slightly off topic but I was under the impression you didn't bleed brand new lifters...anyone want to weigh in?