Install 264's, new lifters - can not get car to idle

Yes X 7 for all.

Lifters were a problem we chased before. Fine with stock cams, said EFF YOU with the 264's. Got some revised ones and were good.

 

[onesickcrx]

so it was the cams? I never heard of bad 264's and never HKS's wierd

 

Yeah, never had a problem either, even with 272s. I knew it was the lifters because everytime we put the cams in, they went flat and took a while to pump back up and had zero psi everytime, so we got a low mileage set of 1g lifters from my buddy Curt and same thing. Two sets of lifters giving us issues with only the 264's. When we put stock cams back in the car ran fine to an extent, but was still a little off. So we got some revised ones, and bam, car ran great with stock cams. Fired right up 150psi in every cylinder. As soon as the 264's were dropped in it was fine running wise, but from then it idled like ass. Weve tried everything under the sun except for the base timing, but im 100% certain when we set that its not going to fix the idle. Kind of at a loss.

I know HKS is great, i cant imagine its a bad grind or anything, but we got the cams from Curt and he said the car they were in before had them in it for like 1000 miles and the guy took them out for something else, makes me wonder if they were giving him s*it too, because the 264s in my car idle like a champ.

 

[belize1334]

^^ So at this point have you still not set the base timing? Maybe you're right and it won't help but come on man...how hard is it to do. At the very least you could just fiddle with the case and advance it a few degrees or retard it a few degrees and see if that helps.

 

Tried that, didnt help, thats why im certain correct base timing wont do much for this...and i need the most crucial part of setting base timing...A TIMING LIGHT lol.

My buddy is bringing me one to borrow tomorrow, without it, it is in fact very hard to do haha.

 

[turbowop]

Timing lights are like $12 at Sears. Or at least the cheapo one I have. It's never failed me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

 

I know, but since we dont have a lower cover, im using toybreakers method with a higher end Snap on light like my buddy has. So im just borrowing it for now until i buy my own.

 

Quoting belize1334:
Lastly...and I don't mean to be picking a fight here but...you're supposed to be a professional. And you're charging people money to work on their cars and you don't know how ignition timing works on a 4G? I must say that I find that appalling.



I know how it works, and i dont do the specific work for slowboy, im not even in FL where the shop is now, im in PA and this is all on my personal customers (usually friends) cars. And because i never had an issue like i stated before, i never felt the need to do this. Not that my views havent changed a little, because they have and i think from here on out i will in fact set this to have a better "foundation".

But just some more food for thought, i asked my buddy who is a ledgend in this industry and has a handful of record breaking cars and when i asked him how often he cares to use a timing light, his response was exactly this "Never, I just set the CAS near center and tune the gay thing with Link." I wont say who it is because i dont want him brought into any sort of negative talk, but theres not one person on this board that wouldnt know who he was if i said his name.

Again, i understand to a noob that doesnt have as much experience should not go by this method, im just stating the fact that it isnt do or die to those who have the abilities to manipulate it. i am going to start setting this though just for consistency purposes when tuning for sure from now on.

 

[bazeng]

I also know a few guys who do that too.
They just adjust the after market ECU to suit the CAS position.

I prefer to set base timing correctly myself.

I just set the igntion map to 10, set the cranking timing to 10 and turn it over via the starter and turn the CAS until I see 10 on the balancer / timing cover. Once that is done, your set.

But like I said previously, I know guys who don't check the base timing and attempt to tune. In the end they see it as a number. Not the best way to do it, but it does happen.

Also some aftermarket ECU's allow you to offset the timing so regardless of the CAS position, you can compensate via software. So in theory you could set the CAS anywhere, then change the offset on the ECU software to see what the timing light sees on the cover/pulley.

 

[jepherz]

This isn't that hard, guys. Yes, if you are going to fully tune the car AFTER setting up the CAS, it honestly won't matter. Will 17* on the map actually mean 17* timing advance? Maybe. But since it was freshly tuned, it doesn't really matter.

However, as soon as you remove the CAS and replace it, you'd have to tune again. Hence the reason behind blindly setting up the CAS and its retardedness.

 

[bigblock4g63]

wow

 

[atc250r]

FYI, you can get an adjustable timing light at Sears for about $75.

John

 

[NateCrisman]

Seems like having an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and no fuel pressure gauge. It's adjustable and "who cares what it actually is set to" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

 

Update.

Set base timing to 5 degrees advanced with a timing light and car idles no better, i figured. BUT, also is considerably more sluggish at WOT. So i reverted back to my old ways, advanced it by hand till it didnt like it, went back a few mm, no knock and runs like a champ. Still idles like complete mud though. So that issue is still lingering.

Also noticed no difference in drive ability. I cant compare this car to anything else though. Its posessed by satan himself.

 

[381gvr4]

^^^^Dude, seriously I can't believe this has gone on for 7 pages.... After getting timing set did you adjust BISS properly??? I don't mean just adjusting the biss screw but acourding to vfaq.

Now get behind your desk and take some orders /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[turbowop]

Quoting SBRJoe:
Update.

BUT, also is considerably more sluggish at WOT. So i reverted back to my old ways, advanced it by hand till it didnt like it, went back a few mm, no knock and runs like a champ.



So you retarded the base ignition timing to the stock level and assumed it would run well without changing the electronic tune? Of course it ran better with the base timing re-advanced, as that's what your electronic tune was setup to run with.

 

[toybreaker]

Mark is spot on.

Setting the base timing on an old school ride a few times will teach you to do the whole job right.

Try dialing in six dueces on a jag v-12, or two fours on tunnel ram bolted to a high compression v-8 (with a bumpy cam), and get back to me on how hard a graaavy lil four cylinder can be!

Back in the day we had weights, springs, and vacuum advance cans as our only tools to make the ignition happen at an appropriate time. (and we were happy /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif )

Hell, when I was a young pup, I had a buddy with a distributor machine, and I spent many a sunday over at his shop playing with the curves. Little more spring little less weight, eventually we get it dialed in so sweet we wanted to call the manufacturer up and tell them they were doing it all wrong... 'till we tried to get it thru emissions, or caught a weather front just wrong, then you'd need earplugs to drive the damn thing... it'd sound like hail on a tin roof... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif )

With these new fangled electronic engine management systems, you can set it wherever, and then tell the ecu whatever you want about the crank poition.

According to the tOOners, that's just fine...

Reality has it's own ideas though, and as you have just found out, you're starting from scratch every time you make a change.

I mean, for fawks sake you can tell the damn ecu it's the fourth of fawkin July, when it's really December. If you miss the base timing and then build a tune off of that.... If you make any changes and don't calibrate the rest of the tune for that offsett, well you're gonna spend a lot of time on April first...


Set the timing correctly, adjust the biss correctly, and then build a new map.

Just the opinion of an old guy who has "fixed" many a mysterious, unsolvable tOOn problem by going back to basics.

 

Quoting 381gvr4:
^^^^Dude, seriously I can't believe this has gone on for 7 pages.... After getting timing set did you adjust BISS properly??? I don't mean just adjusting the biss screw but acourding to vfaq.

Now get behind your desk and take some orders /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif



youve got to be kidding! HAHA. of course i adjusted the BISS screw. LOL


PS id love to take some orders, but the network in FL crashed and the internet company has to install a new modem. They said "well be there between 8am and 5pm tomorrow" (which is today). All i have is my email and a cell phone, so im making due like that!

 

Quoting turbowop:
Quoting SBRJoe:
Update.

BUT, also is considerably more sluggish at WOT. So i reverted back to my old ways, advanced it by hand till it didnt like it, went back a few mm, no knock and runs like a champ.



So you retarded the base ignition timing to the stock level and assumed it would run well without changing the electronic tune? Of course it ran better with the base timing re-advanced, as that's what your electronic tune was setup to run with.



The electronic tune is controlled by a keydiver chip...so no, it wasnt a matter of not changing it, i cannot change it.

Man you guys really dont give me the benefit of the doubt at all hahahaha.

 

[prove_it]

Not after this thread, bah your just a newbie..... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

What do your plugs look like? Maybe they are completely fouled out?

Toybreaker is right, dude KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID!!!! Checking basics will almost always yield an answer.