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Install 264's, new lifters - can not get car to idle

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I meant the shop because ive been doing things for longer than anyone.

I DO things, i dont know every technical fact about these, better wording would have been the better mechanically inclined. Case in point, i got technically PWNED over this base timing subject. You can never know it all.
 

atc250r

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No worries here Joe. It's nice to be able to have an intelligent and adult discussion without it spiraling downward into a sh*t throwing contest. Keep in mind that you might not make more HP by setting the base but it will guarantee that you know where you started and that 28* on the car you build today will be the same 28* that's on the car you build 5 years from now.

Believe it or not, I have seen these cars have idling problems from too much advance (usually ends up as idle surge) or too little advance (straight up stalling or sometimes surging until it stalls). I went through it on my own car and since I had no way to fiddle with the timing inside the ECU I had to do it the old fashioned way.

BTW, Toybreaker had an EXCELLENT point about using the timing belt marks to set base timing, of course you'll need a timing light that is adjustable to do it that way.

John
 

Being humble always pays off, and there is always someone who has been doing this longer then someone else.
 

atc250r

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Quoting SBRJoe:
But in theory if i put the lower cover on and marked the front cover with a sharpee it would work to the same effect correct?



To a certain extent but the question is, once the cover is on, what are you going to mark? Also, the distance between the mark on the balancer and the one that you would make on the oil pump cover would be so far apart that you'd have a difficult time at best getting the timing accurately set. I won't get into the solid crank pulley with these guys here, I've run one on my car for a long time BTW.

Oh, and Mark and I are in 100% agreement on something, make a note on the calendar.

John
 

Rausch

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Quote:
It's nice to be able to have an intelligent and adult discussion without it spiraling downward into a sh*t throwing contest.

Hey, I'm still up for a little poop throwing... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hsugh.gif


/tactless humour off
 

prove_it

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I usually use the "toybreaker" method anyway since it's way easier for me to hit the light on the cam gears than it is the crank pulley. I always thought it was kinda of common knowledge, but yea, it's a great point.
 

Very true john.

I will let you guys know the outcome of setting the base timing. Hopefully it works, im not gonna hold my breath though. This car is the only one ive ever been "fed up" with. Its got the DSM bug for sure, one thing after another it seems.

End result will be just as projected, still, doesnt mean i dont want to /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif haha.
 
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Just some eye candy for you guys. Figured id share the love of what im doing currently. just waiting on my 02 housing to come back from JMF with the 44mm gate flanges welded on and shell be ready to hit the dynno.







 
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prove_it

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Is that going to be running E85?
 

No im going for 500whp on pump, straight 93, no meth.

Maybe a Q16 tune, not likely itll see E85. Theres not enough places around here to get it, and its not pure at the pump this time of year. Mixed with that E78 crap for winter. Unless i get it in 55 gal drums its not worth it, and my 1050's i dont think will support the power that turbo will make with E85, also...i dont feel like running dual pumps.

Maybe down the road. But right now im just trying to hit the 500whp mark on straight pump.

Heres one more /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


 

prove_it

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Sounds about right, I was wondering cause you mentioned tuning on it earlier and I was going to give you crap about the size of the IC if you were running E85.

Anyways going back to the idle issue, no one asked but what is the TPS volts when trying to idle the car? If they are off it could be fighting you.
 

cheekychimp

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Quote:
I understand the technicality of it all, i just want not a theory, but a more "doing it" kind of answer if that makes sense. Ive always been a "doer" kind of person, not so much of a "theory person" because for years i have been successfully "doing it" without paying one bit attention to base timing but always have had awesome results.



Joe,

Just as a concept, think of setting the base timing like setting your idle rpm. You can set idle to 500 rpm if you like. It will idle like sh*t but at WOT it'll probably still run fine. And twisting the CAS, well that's like welding a bracket over the throttle pedal with an adjustable nut in it you can wind out to hold the pedal down a bit so it actually holds a 750-800 rpm idle without stalling. That would work but then imagine going into DSMLink and wanting to adjust something that relied on a TPS signal like simulating the Throttle Closed Switch. I'd imagine that would get FUBAR'd by the TPS constantly reading 'part throttle' because of the hack job.

It's probably a bad comparison but I'm just saying that there is always going to be a knock on effect from 'compensating' for things that were wrong in the first place and I think as a hands on guy you can relate to what I'm saying above.

Paul
 

Quoting prove_it:
Sounds about right, I was wondering cause you mentioned tuning on it earlier and I was going to give you crap about the size of the IC if you were running E85.

Anyways going back to the idle issue, no one asked but what is the TPS volts when trying to idle the car? If they are off it could be fighting you.



Just out of curiosity, what were you gonan bitch about in regards to the IC if i was gonna run E85? haha
 

atc250r

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I'm confused by one thing in all this. Are you actually working on the car side by side with sleepy? Last I knew he was out in Washington State and your shop is in PA. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

John
 

HAHA yes! hes in PA also...i dont think hes ever even been in Washington haha.

Slowboy is in FL now, but im working remotely from PA at home.
 
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prove_it

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E85 has a huge air charge cooling effect which is why a huge intercooler is not needed. Friend and I pushed a turbo neon with a 60 trim to just over 400 whp on e85 with an intercooler over half as big as that one. Around here a lot of kids are switching to E85 and they still think a huge intercooler is a must. I always get a kick out of it.
 

ahh ok. Yeah i know its not "needed" but its going to have no ill effect. The bigger the core the better heat exchange on higher boost levels, no matter what fuel. You can never go wrong, regardless but i agree on E85 its no necessarily a MUST to have a large core...but it really depends on the setup. Like if i had a 16g and E85, i would have saved my $ and got a smaller core. But either way, its going to be more that effecient no matter how i look at it.

Keep in mind this is an SBR core and ive had it on the car for like a year, i wouldnt "downgrade" anyways just because of the fuel i was running haha.
 

belize1334

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With a fully tunable 3D map you can get the proper absolute timing regardless of the base timing you choose. The problem is, even if you don't set it, the base timing setting exists...it's there...you just don't know what it is. Every time you mess with the cams it changes a little and thus changes your absolute timing values. Setting the base timing means that your map always corresponds to the appropriate absolute timing value. If you don't set it, then it can be different from one setup to the next...as for instance when you switch from OEM to 264 cams.

Anecdote: I pulled off my CAS to replace the o-ring and then reinstalled it "by eye" to where I thought it belonged. The car ran LIKE sh*t. Barely idled, sluggish and lurchy, and acted like it had fuel cut at anything above 10psi. I pulled out my timing light and found that it was set at 5* ATDC. That's 10 degrees of retardation. You can barely see that from the orientation of the CAS but it makes a HUGE difference in how the car runs. Granted, I could have put in and EMS system and systematically added 10 degrees everywhere (probably requiring a day on the dyno to experiment and figure out how much to add and where) but it was a simple fix to just pull out the timing light, set the base timing, and then KNOW that the timing maps all meant what they say.

As a final note, remember that the maps report the adjusted timing value (with the base setting already factored in) so if you want what the map says to correspond to what you actually get, then you should set the base timing where it belongs for consistency.

Lastly...and I don't mean to be picking a fight here but...you're supposed to be a professional. And you're charging people money to work on their cars and you don't know how ignition timing works on a 4G? I must say that I find that appalling.
 
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prove_it

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I think he knows how it works, he just chooses to ignore proper set-up techniques.
 

onesickcrx

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Did you install new lifters when you installed the cams? Did you physically check to see if they all primed up? I had one bad lifter and they were 3g lifters brand new right out of the box. Very happy I checked /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Do you have over 12.5 volts when its kinda ideling? Or does it start falling off?

Do you have steady spark on all four cylinders? Any wires crossed? maybe a broken wire?

May be simple questions but have you looked at all of these?
 
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