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Engine will not start

Arty

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 9, 2002
Messages
384
Location
Victoria. Australia
stock GVR4
Car has been sitting for years
working on my own

Years ago car had been running fine, then not far from home approaching stop light, pressed in clutch and engine started to die. I think I had to keep reving the motor to keep it running. I managed to drive it home and got it parked, then lost interest in fixing it and the will to live.


Adjustable fuel pressure regulator with gauge shows 0 psi.

Replaced fuel pump.

Fuel leaking from all four holes in injector rail where injectors connect to rail. Replaced all four injector top o-rings. No fuel leaks now.

Adjustable fuel pressure regulator with guage shows 38 psi.

Unable to crank with starter while working in engine bay.
Key in run position, connect aligator clip wire to starter motor solenoid
and jump to battery +ve, hear loud clunking noise of solenoid but starter motor
does not crank.


Installed new spark plugs.

Inductive pickup timing light connected to plug lead 4, timing light
flashes when key turned to start and engine cranking. Also flashes when swapped to
plug lead 3.

Connected led with 1k series resistor to injector 3 wiring harness connector.
Led flashes when key turned to start and engine cranking.

DSM pocket logger shows no error codes.
DSM logger shows crank sensor pulse is being detected by ECU.
DSM logger air temp = 70, coolant temp = 64


Removed fuel pump cover and syphoned out all of the petrol in the tank except leaving about 5mm deep pool that 6mm tube could not pick up.
Poured in 10 litres of new petrol.

cranked engine still will not fire.

Removed cambelt top cover. Belt and cam sprockes rotate when engine cranking.

Removed spark plugs. Could not smell any strong petrol odour on any plug.

Poured 2 caps of oil into each cylinder. Let sit for 10 min, then cranked engine for 30 seconds hoping rings might be stuck and oil may help unbind them.

Re-installed all four plugs. Turned key to crank engine, noted starter was under a little more load, assume oil was temporarily increasing compression.
Engine still did not fire.

At no time while I've been cranking this engine, has it once made even a momentary splutter.

I'm going to try spraying some aerostart (ether) into the air intake and see if that gets the engine to fire at least once.

Any ideas what the problem might be.
 

MellowVR4

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 25, 2009
Messages
1,662
Location
Milwaukee, Wi
Sounds like it could possibly be the CAS sensor, not sure if the clutch position switch would cause it not to start. Take the CAS out and spin the shaft to see if you can here the injectors firing while the key is on the on position.
 

FlyingEagle

Staff member
Joined
Mar 5, 2005
Messages
1,635
Location
THE Ottawa
Clutch switch will keep it from allowing the starter to operate, via the key. It will still rotate/run with the switch disconnected.
 

Arty

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 9, 2002
Messages
384
Location
Victoria. Australia
From the circuit diagrams for the starter in the USDM manual, I should be able to force the starter motor to run just by
having the battery connected and applying 12v to the starter motor solenoid spade connector, causing the solenoid to pull in
and bridge the contacts inside the starter motor applying 12v to the starter windings and causing the starter to spin.
All I hear is a loud clunk but starter does not spin. Maybe my jumper wire is not thick enough but it sounds like it is working
because the solenoid is making a nice loud clunking noise.
 
Last edited:

iceman69510

Turn Right Racing
Staff member
Joined
Mar 5, 2001
Messages
10,971
Location
Michigan
Clean your large wire to the starter, both ends.
 

Arty

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 9, 2002
Messages
384
Location
Victoria. Australia
The starter has always been working perfectly and is still working perfectly when I use the key so that means all the connections are clean.

Please forget about the starter motor, it has nothing to do with the subject of this post.
 

Arty

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 9, 2002
Messages
384
Location
Victoria. Australia
I obtained a can of Aerostart. I removed the intake hose to the intake manifold, held open the throttle and sprayed heaps into the intake manifold. Reconnected the
hose, went into the cabin, turned the key and cranked the engine.
First it didn't fire at all, but I repeated this spraying into the manifold and cranking the engine.
On 3 separate occasions the engine fired once only.

I now think I have proved there is at least one spark plug actually sparking.

Is it possible that all four injectors have seized closed just because the engine has not run for years ?

I am still not sure how to proceed
 

Arty

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 9, 2002
Messages
384
Location
Victoria. Australia
Quoting MellowVR4:
Sounds like it could possibly be the CAS sensor, not sure if the clutch position switch would cause it not to start. Take the CAS out and spin the shaft to see if you can here the injectors firing while the key is on the on position.



DSM logger shows crank sensor pulse is being detected by ECU.
Is the CAS sensor the same as the sensor that the logger is getting, what I think it calls the crank sensor ?

I'll try removing the CAS and spinning it by hand, neat suggestion thanks.
 

G

Staff member
Joined
Feb 24, 2004
Messages
8,896
Location
zompton
The injectors could all be dead. Though unlikely. How long is "sitting for a long time" ? You should have drained the tank by removing the drain plug, not siphoning it. Now the fuel pump may have clogged all the lines and injectors with rust and sediment. What condition is the fuel pump strainer?
 

Arty

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 9, 2002
Messages
384
Location
Victoria. Australia
Fuel pump and strainer are brand new.
I got more fuel out using the syphon than by removing the drain plug. I was shocked to find the drain plug was about 20mm above the lowest point in the tank.
To get all the fuel out via the drain plug I would have had to raise the right side of the car to get the fuel to run over to the left side where the drain plug is.
 
Last edited:

Arty

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 9, 2002
Messages
384
Location
Victoria. Australia
The tank was not full of sludge, as far as I could see looking at the bottom of the baffle box and through the cut out in the baffle box to the rest of the bottom
of the tank it looked clean and free of sludge and sediment. Even though I had been cranking the engine and running the fuel pump manually from the DSM pocketlogger
when I removed the pump to syphon the tank, I noted the strainer was still clean and white.
 

G

Staff member
Joined
Feb 24, 2004
Messages
8,896
Location
zompton
Well then you need to check all 4 injectors to make sure they are working. They may need to be cleaned. The baskets could be clogged from sitting so long.
 

Arty

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 9, 2002
Messages
384
Location
Victoria. Australia
Quoting MellowVR4:
Sounds like it could possibly be the CAS sensor, not sure if the clutch position switch would cause it not to start. Take the CAS out and spin the shaft to see if you can here the injectors firing while the key is on the on position.



I took the CAS out and I removed the spark plugs and left the plugs connected to their wires and laying on top of the cam cover.
When I rotate the CAS I see good spark on all plugs.

I tried looking in to the cylinders through the plug holes hoping to see some atomised fuel if at least one of the intake valves was in the open position but I did
not see any fuel vapor at all.
I put a finger on two of the injectors to see if I could feel a click when I rotated the CAS but I felt nothing.
I got a long screwdriver and held the blade to the injector plastic body and to the metal boss that the injector fits into and placing my ear on the end of the handle while I rotated the CAS, I could not hear any clicking.

Has anyone tried this screwdriver technique before, if so how easy is it to hear the injector sound?
Can anyone tell me if I should have been able to feel the injector clicking with my finger touching it?

I was hoping to see the fuel pressure on my AFPR gauge slowly drop as the injectors sprayed fuel into the cylinders, but every time I rotate the CAS the ECU momentarily activates the fuel pump. So I disconnected the power to the fuel pump.
When I rotate the CAS now the fuel pressure does not drop at all. As liquid is not compressible I would expect an immediate noticeable drop in fuel pressure on the AFPR gauge, but the fuel pressure did not appear to drop at all.

I also used a multimeter and back probed the white and black wires on the CAS plug and I can see the CAS pulsing the 5V on both cam and crank timing wires so I know the CAS is working properly.
 
Last edited:

Arty

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 9, 2002
Messages
384
Location
Victoria. Australia
Quoting G:
Well then you need to check all 4 injectors to make sure they are working. They may need to be cleaned. The baskets could be clogged from sitting so long.



Not sure how the baskets could have become clogged while sitting ?
I have heard the injectors have very close tolerances and the slightest bit of corrosion, usually due to having water flow through them will cause them to fail.
I think removing and testing and cleaning the injectors is all I can do.

thanks for the help
 

Coltsfan

Well-known member
Joined
May 4, 2014
Messages
200
Location
Tonawanda
Seems like you have it pretty well narrowed down. Have you checked for injector signal with a noid light? If you have blinking lights, then it would be time to clean or replace the injectors.
 

thruarod

Well-known member
Joined
May 31, 2013
Messages
53
Location
Ogdensburg NJ
Did you replace the CAS with the timing mark lined up? Might be silly I know, but I have been tinkering with DSMs for 10 years and only learned that the mark existed there months ago.
 

Arty

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 9, 2002
Messages
384
Location
Victoria. Australia
Quoting Coltsfan:
Seems like you have it pretty well narrowed down. Have you checked for injector signal with a noid light? If you have blinking lights, then it would be time to clean or replace the injectors.



As I mentioned previously, I used a Led and a 1k ohm series resistor as my diy noid light and it flashed when I cranked the engine.
I only tested injector 3 connector with the led.
 

Arty

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 9, 2002
Messages
384
Location
Victoria. Australia
Quoting thruarod:
Did you replace the CAS with the timing mark lined up? Might be silly I know, but I have been tinkering with DSMs for 10 years and only learned that the mark existed there months ago.


I'm not sure I did. As I removed the CAS I noted the orientation of the tongue that engages the camshaft, one side of the tongue seems to have a groove on its edge, and it was at the 3 o'clock position. When I re-installed the CAS I made sure the groove was at the 3 o'clock position again.

Did I do it correctly ?
 
Last edited:
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