prove_it
Well-known member
Out of curiosity, what kind of trans fluid, transfer case fluid, and rear end fluid is everyone using and why?
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Drivetrain Fluids
- Thread starter prove_it
- Start date
turbophein
Well-known member
I just did this! click
heavy shock proof in rear and transfer case, because thats what everybody seems to run with good results
as far as the tranny, it varies on climate. good choices are Redline MTL or MT-90, BG syncromesh or pennzoil syncromesh same as BG click
some people find BG to thin from what i read, i used the pennzoil because autozone had it in stock and my fluid was filthy. but i will be switching to redline soon for a little thicker fluid.
hope this helps!
heavy shock proof in rear and transfer case, because thats what everybody seems to run with good results
as far as the tranny, it varies on climate. good choices are Redline MTL or MT-90, BG syncromesh or pennzoil syncromesh same as BG click
some people find BG to thin from what i read, i used the pennzoil because autozone had it in stock and my fluid was filthy. but i will be switching to redline soon for a little thicker fluid.
hope this helps!
belize1334
Well-known member
RedLine MT-90 for trans, RedLine LightWeight Gear oil for diff / xfer case.
turbowop
Well-known member
I use NEO RHD in the trans. Redline in the xfer case and rear end.
prove_it
Well-known member
What is everyone's opinion about using a high content ZDDP motor oil?
Think about it. Honda calls for motor oil factory and that's what I used in my civic and accord. I've beat both hard and never had a trans problem.
I know for all out drag thick and high end is best but I'm building a daily driver and don't want a heavy gear oil. So I'm looking at the Valvoline VR1 racing oil and noticed that it high ZDDP and wondering if the added zinc content would help with wear and the detergent would help keep things from accumulating in bad spots. Also you can get it in straight 60 weight which is still thick, but thinner for firmer shifts. I know that motor oil has friction modifiers to lower friction and wonder if this would cause the syncros grind. Has anyone tried this yet to see how it performs?
Think about it. Honda calls for motor oil factory and that's what I used in my civic and accord. I've beat both hard and never had a trans problem.
I know for all out drag thick and high end is best but I'm building a daily driver and don't want a heavy gear oil. So I'm looking at the Valvoline VR1 racing oil and noticed that it high ZDDP and wondering if the added zinc content would help with wear and the detergent would help keep things from accumulating in bad spots. Also you can get it in straight 60 weight which is still thick, but thinner for firmer shifts. I know that motor oil has friction modifiers to lower friction and wonder if this would cause the syncros grind. Has anyone tried this yet to see how it performs?
CP
Well-known member
I use the VR1 in my track Miata, and my shop (which campaigns SCCA Spec Maitas and T1 Vettes) recommends the VR1 exclusively. I use 20W50 in my SM.
Ok, I did a bit of research on these items ( GL-4, GL-5, and ZDDP ) since it's Saturday and raining here in Japan.
First GL-4 vs GL-5. The rumor and my understanding has been that SOME GL-5 rated gear oils can be harmful to the brass bushing on the syncros in our era MMC trannies. Keywords are non-ferrous metals ( brass, bronze, aluminum ), EP/AW/SP additives, and all are detailed nicely here click and here click
Next the ZDDP additive. ZDDP has been around for awhile but was found to react poorly with catalytic converters ( degrades certain catalyst material and produces minute amounts of EPA rated "nasty" emissions ). When, somewhat discreetly, the EPA required a reduction of ZDDP in engine oils there was notice of some flat tappet ( non-roller ) lifter failures during new/rebuilt engine break-in. The missing/reduced ZDDP was identified as the likely culprit thus the ZDDP additives hit the market. Lots of good articles on ZDDP via Google if not alread bored by this by now.
Summary, the higher levels of compounds that are known to negatively affect brass bearing materials ( which are used in our trannies ) in some GL-5 rated lubricants is present in ZDDP. Adding ZDDP would IMHO cause accelerated wear on the syncro bushings and make our already grind-prone boxes worse.
First GL-4 vs GL-5. The rumor and my understanding has been that SOME GL-5 rated gear oils can be harmful to the brass bushing on the syncros in our era MMC trannies. Keywords are non-ferrous metals ( brass, bronze, aluminum ), EP/AW/SP additives, and all are detailed nicely here click and here click
Next the ZDDP additive. ZDDP has been around for awhile but was found to react poorly with catalytic converters ( degrades certain catalyst material and produces minute amounts of EPA rated "nasty" emissions ). When, somewhat discreetly, the EPA required a reduction of ZDDP in engine oils there was notice of some flat tappet ( non-roller ) lifter failures during new/rebuilt engine break-in. The missing/reduced ZDDP was identified as the likely culprit thus the ZDDP additives hit the market. Lots of good articles on ZDDP via Google if not alread bored by this by now.
Summary, the higher levels of compounds that are known to negatively affect brass bearing materials ( which are used in our trannies ) in some GL-5 rated lubricants is present in ZDDP. Adding ZDDP would IMHO cause accelerated wear on the syncro bushings and make our already grind-prone boxes worse.
prove_it
Well-known member
I thought that the additive in GL-5 was different than ZDDP.
4thStroke
Well-known member
I just put in 50/50 Redline Heavy Shockproof/Redline 75/90 grear oil in the diff.
I had a concoction of fluids in the tranny: Redline Heavy Shockproof, Redline 75/90 gear oil, and Syncromesh.
For the transfer case, striaght Redline Heavy Shockproof.
I had a concoction of fluids in the tranny: Redline Heavy Shockproof, Redline 75/90 gear oil, and Syncromesh.
For the transfer case, striaght Redline Heavy Shockproof.
Quoting prove_it:
I thought that the additive in GL-5 was different than ZDDP.
Additives ( plural ).
GL-5 has higher quantities of the base compounds, this is from one of the links I provided earlier:
-----------------------------------------------------
EP Additive Chemistry
Here is some data averaged over 3 conventional (mineral) Hypoid GL-5 gear oils of SAE 90 weight as to range of additives:
As we stated before, the additive package may occupy from 3.5% to 10% by weight of each quart of oil.
KV - 17.42 to 18.24 (100 C)
VI - 98-101
Additive EP Elements (% by weight)
Sulfur - 2.72 to 2.93%
Phosphorous - 0.11% to 0.12%
Chlorine - 0.02%
Nitrogen - 0.08 to 0.09%
Borons – 0.5% TO 2%.
The Borons and Cacium carbonates are slowly replacing the chlorines.
Now for certain oils, you might see additional AW/EP components such as Moly and Antimony in less than 1%-3% concentrations.
GL-4 rated gear oils have a milder EP additive package which amounts to 30 to 50% less EP elements than do GL-5 oils.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Now for the ZDDP description cut from a different internet article:
About a year ago I read about the reduction of zinc dithiophosphate (ZDDP) in the oils supplied with API approval that could affect sliding and high pressure (EP) friction in our cars. The reduction of these chemicals in supplied oil was based on the fact that zinc, manganese and/or phosphates reduce the effectiveness and eventually damage catalytic converters and introduce minute amounts of pollutants into our atmosphere.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The added phosphate element is one of the items that does not interact well with non-ferrous materials like brass or bronze.
I don't know the details of Honda tranny internals so I cannot say good or bad on your past ZDDP experience. I also can't tell you what the degredation rate of the brass syncros in the MMC/DSM era cars could or would be either. In fact the immediate effect of the "for engine" ZDDP might be good or even great. I would be leery of the long-term impact mineself.
Maybe the lads at Jack's Transmissions, TRE, or even AMS can add some insight?!?
I thought that the additive in GL-5 was different than ZDDP.
Additives ( plural ).
GL-5 has higher quantities of the base compounds, this is from one of the links I provided earlier:
-----------------------------------------------------
EP Additive Chemistry
Here is some data averaged over 3 conventional (mineral) Hypoid GL-5 gear oils of SAE 90 weight as to range of additives:
As we stated before, the additive package may occupy from 3.5% to 10% by weight of each quart of oil.
KV - 17.42 to 18.24 (100 C)
VI - 98-101
Additive EP Elements (% by weight)
Sulfur - 2.72 to 2.93%
Phosphorous - 0.11% to 0.12%
Chlorine - 0.02%
Nitrogen - 0.08 to 0.09%
Borons – 0.5% TO 2%.
The Borons and Cacium carbonates are slowly replacing the chlorines.
Now for certain oils, you might see additional AW/EP components such as Moly and Antimony in less than 1%-3% concentrations.
GL-4 rated gear oils have a milder EP additive package which amounts to 30 to 50% less EP elements than do GL-5 oils.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Now for the ZDDP description cut from a different internet article:
About a year ago I read about the reduction of zinc dithiophosphate (ZDDP) in the oils supplied with API approval that could affect sliding and high pressure (EP) friction in our cars. The reduction of these chemicals in supplied oil was based on the fact that zinc, manganese and/or phosphates reduce the effectiveness and eventually damage catalytic converters and introduce minute amounts of pollutants into our atmosphere.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The added phosphate element is one of the items that does not interact well with non-ferrous materials like brass or bronze.
I don't know the details of Honda tranny internals so I cannot say good or bad on your past ZDDP experience. I also can't tell you what the degredation rate of the brass syncros in the MMC/DSM era cars could or would be either. In fact the immediate effect of the "for engine" ZDDP might be good or even great. I would be leery of the long-term impact mineself.
Maybe the lads at Jack's Transmissions, TRE, or even AMS can add some insight?!?
Last edited:
prove_it
Well-known member
Good research I love it. I'll have to call them up and do some more research. I've rebuilt enough trannys to know that both Honda and Mitsubishi have a very similar trans design. However I do know it's in how the syncros are machined and the included metal they use. I haven't found any real sources that can tell me what metal or additive is responsible for deteriorating the syncros.
slugsgomoo
Well-known member
in a street car, lightweight shockproof for the t-case and rear seems to be pretty handy. I'm going to try wop's suggestion of neo rhd in my gearbox next time. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
Quoting prove_it:
Good research I love it. I'll have to call them up and do some more research. I've rebuilt enough trannys to know that both Honda and Mitsubishi have a very similar trans design. However I do know it's in how the syncros are machined and the included metal they use. I haven't found any real sources that can tell me what metal or additive is responsible for deteriorating the syncros.
Cool, definitely update us with any info!
Good research I love it. I'll have to call them up and do some more research. I've rebuilt enough trannys to know that both Honda and Mitsubishi have a very similar trans design. However I do know it's in how the syncros are machined and the included metal they use. I haven't found any real sources that can tell me what metal or additive is responsible for deteriorating the syncros.
Cool, definitely update us with any info!
