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Dragstrip results: #139 ran good then broke

NateCrisman

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Nov 22, 2008
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Blairstown, NJ
Quoting Garfield Wright:
Awesome times Nate. You have my full respect /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worthy.gif. Keep up the good work. What clutch are you running again?



Thanks! ACT2600 pressure plate that came off #931, a relatively new oem 2g dsm disk, bolted to a clutchmasters aluminum flywheel (which was pretty beat looking). Hopefully the clutch holds up for another day or two at the track. Next year Ill make the decision: twin disk vs automatic conversion. Really, I think the auto w/ good converter is cheaper and better for drag racing than buying a twindisk clutch.
 

NateCrisman

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Nov 22, 2008
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Blairstown, NJ
Quoting JSchleim18:
Nice runs...what fuel pump are you going to run now?

Do you like the suspension?



Im thinking I may see about getting that JMF fuel cell and running an external pump sooner than later. I got the supra pump working again today, took it out of the car & hooked it up to my battery charger and it's now consistently working again after reinstal and the car runs. But I don't trust it to race or run wot. might pick up a cheapo 255hp intank just to get me by if the fuel cell idea doesn't work out right away. Planning to hit the track again Oct 7th for a wednesday night T&T at Island. They allow non muffler runs on wednesday and the air temp should be cold.

Oh..suspension. Love the weight loss. Love the no suspension movement on launch. But DAMN it's stiff for driving around town. ughhhh. It's not so much that I care about the uncomfortable nature of the car, it's that I'm worried about the car becoming a rattle box pos (like most 2g dsm). GTLuke put that thought in my head about the side effects of such a stiff setup, not on myself, but what will now wear out faster on the car itself.
 
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NateCrisman

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Nov 22, 2008
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Blairstown, NJ
Quoting Brianawd:
I think you will see more than 2mph with race gas tune. Also I really don't thing a bigger exhaust is going to help. It may give you a tinny bit more top end but its going to kill your torque down low that you have with the 50trim. I also think you will see the turbo having a harder time trying to hold boost.

Just retune for 116 turn up the boost and launch the sh*t out of the car. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



Well, that would be great if racegas is worth more than I think. I'm going off the limit of having to keep the boost under 29.8 at all times or the ECU goes into fuel cut. I bet the turbo could hold more boost up top, but I'd have to be able to handle a larger spike. If everything is like I think it is, I only can get maybe 1 more psi overall. maybe I can get the DS-Map guys to remove the fuel cut all together for me or something and just see what happens if it spikes to 32 in order to hold 28?

Only reason Im thinking of exhaust is that my current system is all one piece, rusty, and dented by the rear diff. It's the only non-clean crusty part on the whole car right now and I want to replace it regardless of performance benefit. I'v always picked up mph going from 3" turboback to open o2 housing on every car Iv run like that, but never could attribute it to adding power or reducing weight/spool.

Dude...just put your slicks on and run a 10. Then I don't have to see the sorrow of going down a position on DSMtimes if I knock of a 10.9 first then you blow past me with a 10.5-10.6 hahahaha. Save me the grief! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif
 

thecman02

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Nov 3, 2007
Messages
917
Location
Kalamazoo,MI
Those are some respectable times. Too bad your fuel pump decided to have a hissy fit. I vote you go twin disk, only because I think you'll have more fun driving it around. Once you go auto then I just can't imagine it being as fun when not on a track all though maybe ams mark would better be able to say about that.
 

Lonewolf64

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May 17, 2006
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1,197
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Birmingham, Alabama
Nate, maybe I'm missing something, but why must you use a 3bar map sensor with DSmap? Why can't you pick up a GM 3.5 Bar Map sensor and run more boost?
 

NateCrisman

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Nov 22, 2008
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Location
Blairstown, NJ
I could pick up the aem 3.5bar sensor and use that, but it will bring up another whole batch of issues:

$140 sensor..that kinda sucks
I believe I'll have to retune the car again..which isn't so bad other than I don't have many shots at this magic run..(rollbar, end of season).
The AEM boost controller only reads to 30psi, but should be able to control over that, so long as you can disable the alarm (shuts off solonoid at user set boost level...30psi max I think).

so...yeah, I could go to a bigger map sensor, but it might just open up another can of worms that hurt just as much as the high boost headroom gains.
 

turbowop

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Apr 29, 2001
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Yakima, WA
Is this just an issue with DSMap? I only run a GM 3bar with the Maftpro. My Defi boost gauge only goes to 28psi, but it spikes *well* past that pegging the gauge when I romp on it. It settles around 28psi or a little over so I assume I usually run 29psi. Never had an issue with my setup. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Here is a youtube of my gauges after recording a 1-2-3 pull. click
 

NateCrisman

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Nov 22, 2008
Messages
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Blairstown, NJ
yeah, this is a DSMap issue. There is a user adjustable fuel cut, but the software will only allow you to set it within the range of the map sensor. The biggest number you can put in the cell is 29.8.

If it was adjustable above the map sensor limit, or there was a checkbox to just shut off the fuel cut, I would do just what you do...live with a little spike in order to run at 28-30psi even if the short spike goes to 32-33..whatever.

I'm also not sure what happens when you go over 30psi with the GM3bar with respect to the fuel map. does it just cap off and run off the last cell in the table or does is default to 0 or something?

Other issue is the AEM boost controller. It has a built in shutoff for anything that maxes out the internal map sensor...which also has a 30psi limit. I don't think this can be bypassed or set above 30psi. What may happen is setting the boost controller over 30 will make it shut off if boost stays above the alarm for more than a split second. Ill play around to see what effect this has.
 

turbofonz

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Sep 27, 2006
Messages
475
Location
Granby, MA
Awesome times. Car looks great.

Your could definately benifit from a better FMIC and a true CAI. on a 118mph pass on my 1g, IAT(at the t/b) moves + or - 2* at the end of the pass. True CAI and 4" ETS core. Sameish boost as you, on an evo3 though.

Looking foward to seeing more progress on this thing.
 

464/2K

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Oct 21, 2003
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Denver,Co
Hey Brian did you feel the fire lite under your ass? Haha slap those slicks on, try for a 10 on street tires later.

Nate, your doing amazing! Car looks beautiful, except that dent on the pass. Rear door..... 464 has the exact same dent /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bawling.gif
 

NateCrisman

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Nov 22, 2008
Messages
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Location
Blairstown, NJ
Quoting turbofonz:
Awesome times. Car looks great.

Your could definately benifit from a better FMIC and a true CAI. on a 118mph pass on my 1g, IAT(at the t/b) moves + or - 2* at the end of the pass. True CAI and 4" ETS core. Sameish boost as you, on an evo3 though.

Looking foward to seeing more progress on this thing.



your saying you don't see more than 2*F of temp change during a drag pass when running a 16G at nearly 30psi? seriously? My Ait is in the upper pipe about 10" from the TB, as I said I start a run in the mid 90's and am seeing over 120*F by the end of 4th gear, nearly 30*F temp change.

I'v been hunting on EvoM for the old posts I made when I put the 4" thick garret core on my Evo8 (buschur race fmic) replacing the stocker when I was running a gt35r at about the same boost. I can't remember at all what the temp rise was going down the track. Unfortunatly, I'm really out of cash to spend on this car right now. Need to allot all my funds to buying another parts car in order to turn some more profit rather than buying expensive parts for my toy. That fmic core is like $600 without endtanks! not cheap.

The cold air intake on the other hand, I already have the silicone 3 to 4" connector. just need to buy a filter and a U bend and have it welded. cheap and easy.
 
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NateCrisman

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Nov 22, 2008
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Blairstown, NJ
Quoting 464/2K:
Hey Brian did you feel the fire lite under your ass? Haha slap those slicks on, try for a 10 on street tires later.

Nate, your doing amazing! Car looks beautiful, except that dent on the pass. Rear door..... 464 has the exact same dent /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bawling.gif



yeah, that dent really bugs me. Someday Ill likely see if a paintless dent repair place might be able to fix it.
 

NateCrisman

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Nov 22, 2008
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Blairstown, NJ
I found my old data from EvoM: here is a cut/paste of what I had to say in September 2005 regarding the 4" thick garret fmic core vs stock evo8 fmic.
Quote:
Went to Englishtown tonight to test out the Buschur Race FMIC core.

My previous best mph with the stock FMIC 2 weeks ago at 30psi of boost was 120.6mph on 116 octane. tonight I ran 123.4mph on 28psi and 126.5mph on 31psi. The car has a PTE GT35R turbo, AEM EMS, fuel/exhaust/icpipes/tialbov & basic mods.

AIT is measured directly after the fmic:

Today at Englishtown:
At 31psi with the BR Race FMIC, ambient temp is 60*F. Starting line AIT is 71.6*F, top of 3rd temp is 75.2*F, end of 4th gear temp is 86.6*F.
That's a temp gain of 3.6*F in 1-3 gears and 15* in 1-4 gears.

2 Weeks ago at Island Dragway:
At 30psi with the stock fmic, ambient temp is about 78*F. Starting line AIT is 91.4*F, top of 3rd temp is 131.0*F, end of 4th gear temp is 138.2*F.
That's a temp gain of 39.4*F in 1-3 gears and 46.8*F in 1-4 gears.

This is an incredible change in AIT. The AEM logger was showing about 420whp with the stock fmic at 30psi in 3rd gear. The same math shows 480-490whp at 31psi with the new FMIC, granted there is a 18*F change in ambient temp that helped some. That's a solid 60-70whp gain from the combination of 1psi of boost, 18*F of ambient temp, and the FMIC. The 6+mph gain in trap speed indicates the ems logger is atleast somewhat in reality.

Below are the results of my testing on this subject on the street with pumpgas at 23.5psi. This was posted on a differnt thread previously.

I put the BR Race FMIC on today. I had to make some minor adjustments to the IC pipes, weld on a new section, and replace one bend...no biggie, install was done in less than an hour even with tig welding and tapping for the AIT sensor.

On to the preliminary results:

STOCK FMIC at 23.5psi boost ~75*-77*F ambient temp.
3rd gear WOT pull from 3000rpm to 8000rpm. Temp starts at 76.4*F and rises to 104.0*F at 8000rpm in 3rd gear. Temp gain of about 27.5*F on a single gear pull.

Launching from a standstilll ait is 78.0*F and rises to over 105.8*F by 7000rpm in 3rd. Temp gain of 27.8*F on a drag simulation of 1-2-3 gears.

BR Race FMIC at same 23.5psi boost ~70*-72* ambient temp.
3rd gear WOT pull from 3000rpm to 8000rpm. Temp starts at 71.6*F and rise to 71.6*F!!
Temp gain on the single gear pull is ZIP, NADA, NOTHING. I repeatedly tested this, and even went out to make sure the sensor was plugged in and in the ic pipe, as it was staggering.

launcing from a standstill AIT is 69.8*F and rises to 73.4*F at 7000rpm in 3rd.
Temp gain of 3.6*F on a drag simulation of 1-2-3 gears.

Im flat out amazed at the temp rise now, it's almost non existant.

on a side note, I didn't touch the hallman evolution MBC during the test, boost was exactly 23.5psi +,- .5psi with both intercoolers without adjustment. I know alot of people say they see a big boost change going to a fmic upgrade, I didn't see squat.

At 23.5psi with the stock fmic, today the best WHP the ems logger recorded was 393whp.
At the same 23.5psi with the BR Race FMIC, the best WHP was 421whp.
The calibration file and boost pressure were untouched. That WHP gain was completely from the FMIC and ambient temp change.


WHP when overlayed is consistently 15 to 20hp better with the new FMIC core at the same boost level. Much of the gain seems to be at the higher rpm, when the stock fmic core's AIT was rising up. Granted this is comparing a single gear pull.

At the dragstrip the power gain in 4th gear will be even more, as the stock fmic is totally heatsoaked and temps are over 120*F the whole gear. with the curve of the BRFMIC, I belive actual AIT at 24psi would be below 80*F all of 4th gear. 40*F is BIG.

This FMIC should make a very very significant power gain at the dragstrip, even more so than seen on the street on single or 1-3 gear pulls. The AIT will be the most different at the end of 4th gear.

My gut feeling is this FMIC core will be worth 2mph at street boost level, and as much as 4mph at 30psi. I guessed well!

 

Lonewolf64

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May 17, 2006
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Birmingham, Alabama
Maybe an easier (and cheaper) solution is to fab up your own simple on/off meth injection? The pump, hobbes switch and all can be gotten for quite cheap, and you obviously have the skill to get it up yourself. That would do a good job in making up the inefficiencies of your intercooler core and could lead to lower than ambient charge temperatures.
 

turbowop

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Apr 29, 2001
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Yakima, WA
I don't think meth injection lowers the charge air below ambient. I'm pretty sure it doesn't anyway. I really need to log my intake temps, though I would only know them *before* the meth nozzle. The only thing I've looked at regarding such temps is while driving up long, steep grades. At 5psi for minutes, my intake temps are never more than around three degrees above ambient.

That said, I agree that meth injection could make up for the inefficiency of the intercooler core as well as allow you to run race gas boost and timing levels.
 

bazeng

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Feb 6, 2003
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Melbourne, Australia
Very cool Nate..

Awesome 60fters...

Are you going to try and lean it out a little more and get 12.5:1 afr??
You'd pick up a heap of power there...

What drive shafts are you running?
Also what gearbox?

Surprised the slicks aren't causing anything to break!
 

turbowop

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Usually for most guys the slicks actually stop the drivetrain breakage. The tires wrinkle and flex which reduces the shock to the drivetrain.
 

turbofonz

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Sep 27, 2006
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475
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Granby, MA
Quoting NateCrisman:

your saying you don't see more than 2*F of temp change during a drag pass when running a 16G at nearly 30psi? seriously? My Ait is in the upper pipe about 10" from the TB, as I said I start a run in the mid 90's and am seeing over 120*F by the end of 4th gear, nearly 30*F temp change.



Yep. Starting at an 86* IAT before the pass, the Iat will drop to like 82* in 2nd gear gear, then back up at the end of the pass. If you have the ECMlink v3 app, I can show you some logs. 28psi dropping to 24-25psi. 93 octane. IAT in pretty much the same spot as you.
 

Rausch

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Dec 21, 2004
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Cleveland, OH
Quote:
I'm also not sure what happens when you go over 30psi with the GM3bar with respect to the fuel map. does it just cap off and run off the last cell in the table or does is default to 0 or something?

I remember reading taht it defaults to 0. There was a link on here somewhere that had that info on a DS forum. There was concern, and it seemeed that those users were tuning the bottom map similar/same to the top to avoid issue. Seems silly to me to program it to do that... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

I'll see if I can find the link.
 

NateCrisman

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Nov 22, 2008
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Blairstown, NJ
Ms the dsmap guys have fixed those issues. Now when you go off the end of either rpm or boost on the maps the ecu just outputs whatever is in the last row/column. Previous versions had the bug where it would wrap around where when you went past 7500rpm you were them running on the 1000rpm column. Now it just stays at the 7500 column.

They are also saying that fuel cut is off too, so looks like I'm ok for going right to 30psi with a little spike above.
 
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