muaythaimike
Well-known member
has anyone ever tryed to do this? I mean dont get me wrong I love my turbo 4g63, but how much power can we make all motor, or do a 2.4 block with a 2.0 head.
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all motor 4g63
- Thread starter muaythaimike
- Start date
slobra
Well-known member
There was always alot of this discussion over on 4g61t.org and It always came down to the fact that any other performance based n/a engine is built to rev high and usually has some sort of cam timing to make power.
I think you would wish you sunk your money into the best engines Mitsu has to offer, the turbo ones /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif.
Try it out and post some pics and your opinions of it.
I think you would wish you sunk your money into the best engines Mitsu has to offer, the turbo ones /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif.
Try it out and post some pics and your opinions of it.
Dialcaliper
Well-known member
The Galant AMG used this approach. 170hp (already fairly tuned)
4G64's came from the factory with as much as 150.
You might be able to crack 250 with a lot of effort and money.
It could be done, but you'd need to get a lot of custom parts made (high compression pistons), and pick and choose to find other parts. Honestly, the 4G63 wasn't designed to be a very great N/A engine - the components are heavy and designed to stand up to turbo abuse, and the stock compression is pretty low.
Like any all-motor engine, you'll spend a lot of money to really get anywhere, and in order to produce the kind of power a turbo will produce, you'll sacrifice a lot of drivability.
4G64's came from the factory with as much as 150.
You might be able to crack 250 with a lot of effort and money.
It could be done, but you'd need to get a lot of custom parts made (high compression pistons), and pick and choose to find other parts. Honestly, the 4G63 wasn't designed to be a very great N/A engine - the components are heavy and designed to stand up to turbo abuse, and the stock compression is pretty low.
Like any all-motor engine, you'll spend a lot of money to really get anywhere, and in order to produce the kind of power a turbo will produce, you'll sacrifice a lot of drivability.
Relating to this topic, I experience a semi built motor with my 92 cx hatch (Yes a honda) I had before I moved here. When I say semi built I mean I didnt do all the internals but for the little cart I was pushing some good power. For anyone that was once a honda fan could assume the power I had in this little car but I had an 90 Ls block with JDM ITR .25 overbore pistons, 2000 b16 head port/polished with ITR internals (cams and valve train). Nothing major but the thing moved pretty good I thought. Was thinking of going ITB's and such but after you spend your money on an N/A setup you'd wish you would have investing in a turbo setup.
Once I bought the vr4 the power seems to be endless esp having a closed deck block. Ive gone turbo and I dont think I will ever go back to N/A. Save your money and build a turbo motor.
Once I bought the vr4 the power seems to be endless esp having a closed deck block. Ive gone turbo and I dont think I will ever go back to N/A. Save your money and build a turbo motor.
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I've tossed this idea around in my head for some time; I've even conteplated starting a thread on this very topic. This is how I started to peice one together in my head.
Obviously, some head work for improved flow, and perhaps some slightly aggressive turbo cams (such as HKS or BC), utilizing adj. cam gears to dial in some overlap that an NA setup requires. I'm not sure how much it would cost to get some hi-comp pistons made (around 10.5:1 or 11:1), but I was contemplating using the longer rods from a 2.4 to bump up compression, and make it more high-rpm freindly (provided they dont cause the pistons to try to occupy the same space and time as the valves). There are a few companies that make headers for the NA 4g63 1gens (my GGSX has a Headman peice). I think a mild SMIM could help improve power and response for an NA motor, such as the JMF street item. I just wonder how to go about tuning the ecu, if anyone has ever tuned for NA setups (keydiver?).
I also started to brainstorm on making an ITB setup. I started to look at some old Ford truck throttle bodies from the V8s and I6s - the dual throttle ones - but they look to small. I wonder if a bosch blow through MAF could be used. Vacuum lines and other sensors are still some issues i haven't tought of dealing with yet.
Obviously, some head work for improved flow, and perhaps some slightly aggressive turbo cams (such as HKS or BC), utilizing adj. cam gears to dial in some overlap that an NA setup requires. I'm not sure how much it would cost to get some hi-comp pistons made (around 10.5:1 or 11:1), but I was contemplating using the longer rods from a 2.4 to bump up compression, and make it more high-rpm freindly (provided they dont cause the pistons to try to occupy the same space and time as the valves). There are a few companies that make headers for the NA 4g63 1gens (my GGSX has a Headman peice). I think a mild SMIM could help improve power and response for an NA motor, such as the JMF street item. I just wonder how to go about tuning the ecu, if anyone has ever tuned for NA setups (keydiver?).
I also started to brainstorm on making an ITB setup. I started to look at some old Ford truck throttle bodies from the V8s and I6s - the dual throttle ones - but they look to small. I wonder if a bosch blow through MAF could be used. Vacuum lines and other sensors are still some issues i haven't tought of dealing with yet.
Just because im a subpost on here doesnt mean I am else where. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif. This is my first turbo car, but im only 26 and have had 14 other cars and besides 2 of them they were all N/A.
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Quoting 14bCrazy:
Isn't it cute how the sub 1,000 posts kids talk about N/A motors. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif
Yeah, I know I'm cute. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Isn't it cute how the sub 1,000 posts kids talk about N/A motors. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif
Yeah, I know I'm cute. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
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muaythaimike
Well-known member
fivestardsm
Well-known member
Quoting Zenith:
I'm not sure how much it would cost to get some hi-comp pistons made (around 10.5:1 or 11:1),
I contacted ROSS a year ago, and they quoted me $600-650 for 11:1 customs fit for stock turbo rods (or what ever I wanted to run). I have a set of 10:1's in my GSX and it made pretty good power with stock turbo cams and a mild port match on the head. That is until the oil pump failed at 80 Mph and the bottom end hammered it self to death. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif
Which Sucks, I was getting some serious fuel economy as well.. (33 mpg avg. after 3 tanks of 93)
I figured if I was going to do the motor again, I would get a Butcher crank to go along with the rest so I could make it rev a little higher!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
click
Steve.
I'm not sure how much it would cost to get some hi-comp pistons made (around 10.5:1 or 11:1),
I contacted ROSS a year ago, and they quoted me $600-650 for 11:1 customs fit for stock turbo rods (or what ever I wanted to run). I have a set of 10:1's in my GSX and it made pretty good power with stock turbo cams and a mild port match on the head. That is until the oil pump failed at 80 Mph and the bottom end hammered it self to death. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif
Which Sucks, I was getting some serious fuel economy as well.. (33 mpg avg. after 3 tanks of 93)
I figured if I was going to do the motor again, I would get a Butcher crank to go along with the rest so I could make it rev a little higher!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
click
Steve.
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Quoting KevinDunaway:
Just because im a subpost on here doesnt mean I am else where. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif. This is my first turbo car, but im only 26 and have had 14 other cars and besides 2 of them they were all N/A.
Ya but this board is the only one that counts. Bow down to my post count newbie!!!!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worthy.gif
Just because im a subpost on here doesnt mean I am else where. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif. This is my first turbo car, but im only 26 and have had 14 other cars and besides 2 of them they were all N/A.
Ya but this board is the only one that counts. Bow down to my post count newbie!!!!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worthy.gif
Quoting Zenith:
Quoting 14bCrazy:
Isn't it cute how the sub 1,000 posts kids talk about N/A motors. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif
Yeah, I know I'm cute. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Well then, I'll go with his answer too.
Quoting 14bCrazy:
Isn't it cute how the sub 1,000 posts kids talk about N/A motors. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif
Yeah, I know I'm cute. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Well then, I'll go with his answer too.
Struc
Well-known member
Quoting Zenith:
but I was contemplating using the longer rods from a 2.4 to bump up compression, and make it more high-rpm freindly
FYI, the 2.4 4G64 rods are the same as the 4G63.
but I was contemplating using the longer rods from a 2.4 to bump up compression, and make it more high-rpm freindly
FYI, the 2.4 4G64 rods are the same as the 4G63.
When I was racing All Motor a friend of mine bought Extreme's Mirage and was making it into an All motor car. The motor was a high compression(over 15 to 1) 2.4. It was being built by Jackson Mchine. It never got off the ground the motor blow up while dynoing. It was going to be rebuilt but it never happened. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif I would bet that the car is still sitting in his garage about 10 min. from were I live. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
Heres a video of the car when it was a turbo FWD car.
click
Heres a video of the car when it was a turbo FWD car.
click
icurunnin
Well-known member
N/A is best left got honda's IMHO. they have the variable valve timing which is pretty much two cams which makes them streetable. I have yet to see a DSM go N/A and run anything quicker than a 14's and thats with the 3g V6.
the euro Galant Dynamic-4 (4wd, 4ws, NA) was 151hp stock.
you can make 200hp (quite a few ppl have done this here with race cars) but it will cost quite a lot of money. getting above 200hp will be tough and cost a lot.
but 200hp NA is pretty sweet, it would beat a 200hp turbo vr4 IMO.
you can make 200hp (quite a few ppl have done this here with race cars) but it will cost quite a lot of money. getting above 200hp will be tough and cost a lot.
but 200hp NA is pretty sweet, it would beat a 200hp turbo vr4 IMO.
Quoting slobra:
I think you would wish you sunk your money into the best engines Mitsu has to offer, the turbo ones /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif.
wow. what about the 1.6 liter mivec engine in the JDM cyborg mirage? 175hp stock.
sure, its a high revvin engine, but thats still badass high technology right there!!!
oh yeah, and f*ck vtac. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
I think you would wish you sunk your money into the best engines Mitsu has to offer, the turbo ones /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif.
wow. what about the 1.6 liter mivec engine in the JDM cyborg mirage? 175hp stock.
sure, its a high revvin engine, but thats still badass high technology right there!!!
oh yeah, and f*ck vtac. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
bazeng
Well-known member
Would a stroked 2.4L block with the BC 2.6L kit work well for an N/A motor?
It would be quite torquey!!
Add long rods to the equation with shorter pistons to give it a few more revs..
If you have the money, why not give it a go?
It would be quite torquey!!
Add long rods to the equation with shorter pistons to give it a few more revs..
If you have the money, why not give it a go?
Dialcaliper
Well-known member
I thought about mentioning the BC 2.6 kit, but there are a couple issues. The foremost is that you'd need custom pistons, as the kit generally would come with low compression turbo pistons. The second is that the rod ratio is pretty lousy - even worse than the 2.3/2.4L (1.41 - worse than a lot of domestics - your rev limit will somewhat limited, and the engine will have a hard time breathing without the turbo). The third is $$ - how much are you actually looking to spend and what are you building the engine to do? Also, the kit is only for 7-bolts.
As far as cams go, you'll probably want to mix and match. N/A engines typically have longer intake durations than turbo cams, with more overlap, but you don't necessarily want as much lift. (I'm imagining something like matching an HKS 272 intake with a 264 or stock exhaust cam, or maybe a 280/272. Unfortunately, many cam manufacturers for imports have adopted the "264, 272, 280" duration designations for every application, but the lift and duration at .050" are completely different. It might even be useful to mix brands between intake and exhaust to get the lift you want. I'd recommend looking at the detailed cam specs for various 1.8-2.5L engines out there. Don't start comparing things to VTEC cams though, as they can get away with much longer durations on the high lift lobe.
That still doesn't tell the whole story though, as bore/stroke vary, as do valve diameters. You can also play with relative valve diameter if you're getting head work done.
Intake and intake manifold and exhaust header design and resonance become more important than in a turbo application as well. Obviously you'll also want to either stick with the stock exhaust, or build one in the 2.25-2.5" diameter range. If you're doing a street engine using a 6-bolt, something like a cyclone manifold might be useful for getting some low end back. Otherwise, custom would be the way to go (or look for a sheetmetal intake with the smallest plenum size you can find).
The main question is, what are you going to do with it? Street or Race? 200 HP is probably pushing the limit of streetability for a 2.0L, maybe 230-250 for a 2.4L. More importantly, what kind of car are you going to put it in? A high HP, high revving N/A 4 banger works in a light car that doesn't take much to get moving. The galant is not a light car, and the lack of torque compared to a turbo setup will cause "issues" getting off the line in a highly tuned engine. It might be helpful to swap to a JDM final drive on the transmission and rear end if you plan to make your power higher in the rpm band.
I think my choice for an all out N/A engine would probably be a long rod 2.4L, or a destroked 2.1L for a race engine - You're trying to pump as much air as possible to get power. For a street car with a more reasonable budget, a 2.3L or standard 2.4L would probably do the job, or just stick with the 2.0L and focus on getting everything else to match up.
Pistons you might want around 11:1 for the street (maybe between 12:1 and 13:1 if you plan to run premium, depending on what octane you can get), or higher for race gas. Picking a CR is more important, as you can't simply make up the difference by raising boost pressure, only timing. Find the lightest components you can, especially rods, as they won't be seeing nearly the compression loads that a turbo engine will. Using a 7 bolt block might help in this instance.
Do your research and look what N/A tuners do with other engines.
As far as cams go, you'll probably want to mix and match. N/A engines typically have longer intake durations than turbo cams, with more overlap, but you don't necessarily want as much lift. (I'm imagining something like matching an HKS 272 intake with a 264 or stock exhaust cam, or maybe a 280/272. Unfortunately, many cam manufacturers for imports have adopted the "264, 272, 280" duration designations for every application, but the lift and duration at .050" are completely different. It might even be useful to mix brands between intake and exhaust to get the lift you want. I'd recommend looking at the detailed cam specs for various 1.8-2.5L engines out there. Don't start comparing things to VTEC cams though, as they can get away with much longer durations on the high lift lobe.
That still doesn't tell the whole story though, as bore/stroke vary, as do valve diameters. You can also play with relative valve diameter if you're getting head work done.
Intake and intake manifold and exhaust header design and resonance become more important than in a turbo application as well. Obviously you'll also want to either stick with the stock exhaust, or build one in the 2.25-2.5" diameter range. If you're doing a street engine using a 6-bolt, something like a cyclone manifold might be useful for getting some low end back. Otherwise, custom would be the way to go (or look for a sheetmetal intake with the smallest plenum size you can find).
The main question is, what are you going to do with it? Street or Race? 200 HP is probably pushing the limit of streetability for a 2.0L, maybe 230-250 for a 2.4L. More importantly, what kind of car are you going to put it in? A high HP, high revving N/A 4 banger works in a light car that doesn't take much to get moving. The galant is not a light car, and the lack of torque compared to a turbo setup will cause "issues" getting off the line in a highly tuned engine. It might be helpful to swap to a JDM final drive on the transmission and rear end if you plan to make your power higher in the rpm band.
I think my choice for an all out N/A engine would probably be a long rod 2.4L, or a destroked 2.1L for a race engine - You're trying to pump as much air as possible to get power. For a street car with a more reasonable budget, a 2.3L or standard 2.4L would probably do the job, or just stick with the 2.0L and focus on getting everything else to match up.
Pistons you might want around 11:1 for the street (maybe between 12:1 and 13:1 if you plan to run premium, depending on what octane you can get), or higher for race gas. Picking a CR is more important, as you can't simply make up the difference by raising boost pressure, only timing. Find the lightest components you can, especially rods, as they won't be seeing nearly the compression loads that a turbo engine will. Using a 7 bolt block might help in this instance.
Do your research and look what N/A tuners do with other engines.
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I think all n/a 4 bangers are best left to light cars. That video was a KA in an S13 240. They weigh about 2600 lbs and rwd. Im sure you can get them to weigh less also. I know of a guy who was able to squeeze 250whp out of a nissan 1.8 vvl. Big money though.
