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opinions on anything > 16g....


4G63_GSR
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 59387 posted 04/11/03 02:42 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
what are your opinions on anything bigger than a 16g on the streets...??? i'm thinking about a t3/t4 setup for the ultimate street/strip sleeper... now am i thinking in the wrong direction??? just let me know... oh yeah... as of right now who has the best quality in labor and pricing when it comes to doing a full rebuilt engine???

Posts: 852 | From: wis | Member Since: 01/22/03 | IP: (216.170.168.131) | Report this post to a Moderator

a_santos
Brasileiro Turbinado


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 59388 posted 04/14/03 02:17 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
A 16g is a great street turbo. Small or large. Why you would go with anything else? I don't know. If you are looking into getting a manifold, get this one  - It is the best manifold out there, and at $499 it is a good deal.

This manifold with a ported 16g = badass VR4 [Smile]

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GeeRIDE
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 59389 posted 04/14/03 02:53 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
a 20g is very streetable IMO. I have lot's of friends that went big 16g with full supporting mods and weren't too satisfied, they want something bigger..Yea you can get a blang blang manifold, but why not just buy a 2g mani. and port the hell out of it...And yea you may not be a badass if you've got a bigggg turbo and mani to match it, you must have the proper tuning ability to put them to their full potential.

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howard
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 59390 posted 04/14/03 02:58 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Manifold schmanifold, just get a ported 2G or Evo III manifold and be done with it. A 16G + those shiny headers will cost as much as a 2G/Evo manifold and a turbo with much more potential than a 16G.

The 2G manifold is good for 10's, hell, maybe 9's if Curt Brown is still using one.

And no shiny manifold/huge turbo combination insures that a GVR4 will be badass. I think Jason Crum proved that point, if anyone here remembers him (cough cough, DSSA!).

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4G63_GSR
Member +++


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 59391 posted 04/14/03 04:48 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
quote:
Originally posted by howard:
Manifold schmanifold, just get a ported 2G or Evo III manifold and be done with it. A 16G + those shiny headers will cost as much as a 2G/Evo manifold and a turbo with much more potential than a 16G.

The 2G manifold is good for 10's, hell, maybe 9's if Curt Brown is still using one.

And no shiny manifold/huge turbo combination insures that a GVR4 will be badass. I think Jason Crum proved that point, if anyone here remembers him (cough cough, DSSA!).

hmmmm.... 20G huh... yeah i think i'll just pass up a 16G... any more inputs guys???

Posts: 852 | From: wis | Member Since: 01/22/03 | IP: (216.170.168.131) | Report this post to a Moderator

Ash
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 59392 posted 04/14/03 09:49 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
quote:
Originally posted by gvr4in:
...I have lot's of friends that went big 16g with full supporting mods and weren't too satisfied, they want something bigger..

That describes me in one

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a_santos
Brasileiro Turbinado


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 59393 posted 04/14/03 11:24 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
It's not about the blang. If I had that header I would wrap it to keep the heat out of the engine bay. The bottom line is that it does not take a rocket scientist to see that the header on the pic flows way more air than a 2g or Evo manifold. Why not get it if it makes more power? You guys amaze me with your comments some times.

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chadhayashi
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 59394 posted 04/15/03 12:07 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I too have a big 16g. But at the elevations I drive at to go boarding every snowy weekend, (11K ft asl) I gets worked hard. I'll be going to a 20g minimum. Want the flow w/o the heat. I'll deal w/ somemore lag.

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Vr4in'
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 59395 posted 04/15/03 03:36 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
the 20g is a better turbo,but its really what you are looking for.if you dont mind about lag a 20g doesnt have much but more then the 16g because of its size.

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Nate
May I have your autograph?


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 59396 posted 04/15/03 05:55 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
""The bottom line is that it does not take a rocket scientist to see that the header on the pic flows way more air than a 2g or Evo manifold. Why not get it if it makes more power? You guys amaze me with your comments some times.""

From personal experience, flowing more air does not equal making more power in every case. I've had cylinder heads that looked like they would flow a TON of air, but the car ran like ass with it. Large runners do not equal velocity.

Now, my question to you is, how do you know it makes more power? Has it been tested and proven on a dyno? With what turbos? Good arguments are proven with data to back up opinions. Prove to me with data that this SS manifold allows a car to make more power just by bolting it on.

The 2G manifold is proven to work (Curt Brown at 9.87 @ 145), so the burden of proof is at the feet of the person arguing in favor of the SS manifold.

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DSSA
Old-Head


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 59397 posted 04/15/03 07:10 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
quote:
Originally posted by howard:

And no shiny manifold/huge turbo combination insures that a GVR4 will be badass. I think Jason Crum proved that point, if anyone here remembers him (cough cough, DSSA!).

heh...Tin can...5lbs. bag...10lbs. of shit.

We made that car run 11.9s the 1st trip to the track with half the BS on it that he used.

As far as a street turbo, I'll be using a T-61 on the next GVR4. A 20G is a great street turbo. When set up correctly, it's like having an on/off switch for boost.

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howard
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 59398 posted 04/15/03 09:18 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
quote:
Originally posted by a_santos:
It's not about the blang. If I had that header I would wrap it to keep the heat out of the engine bay. The bottom line is that it does not take a rocket scientist to see that the header on the pic flows way more air than a 2g or Evo manifold. Why not get it if it makes more power? You guys amaze me with your comments some times.

Speak from experience or empirical data, not from the way things look or seem.

You don't need a rocket scientist, you need hard numbers from the track and dyno to prove that something:

A) produces more power
B) produces it where you want it
C) is cost-justified

As for the 16G/20G argument, the 20G really is a great street turbo. Especially above 18-20psi, it really beats the 16G.

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chucklesas
Hogna Carolinensis


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 59399 posted 04/15/03 09:32 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
quote:
Originally posted by howard:
You don't need a rocket scientist, you need hard numbers from the track and dyno to prove that something:

Sorry, I thought this was funny, I just realized today in my basic fluids class that I can use these equations I'm learning to get the flow of turbines and fluids through a pipe. I am majoring in Rocket Science AKA Aerospace Engineering.

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Hibrn8
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 59400 posted 04/15/03 09:38 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
i agree that teh 16g and 20g are really streetable turbos. i run a t3t4 as well as my buddy which everyone claims arent streetable whatsoever. in my opnion, it really comes down ot the driver. if you know how to drive the car with this setup you learn how how to keep the big boy boosted. and for me i find it a fine for the street.

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DSSA
Old-Head


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 59401 posted 04/15/03 11:39 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
quote:
Originally posted by Hibrn8:
i agree that teh 16g and 20g are really streetable turbos. i run a t3t4 as well as my buddy which everyone claims arent streetable whatsoever.

Nate and I laugh about this from time-to-time. Back when I got my 1st GVR4 (8 years ago now?) I was planning on going 20G for the 1st turbo upgrade for the car. Everyone at that time was like "Oh! You can't use that, that's a race turbo, not a street turbo. It lags too much and isn't very driveable". I ported the crap out of everything and the turbo spooled up faster than the 14B did when it was stock.

Now we look back on that and say to each other "You remember when a 20 used to be a "big" turbo?"

I don't think I'd use anything short of a Red/AGP L3/T4 on a street car anymore.

The T4 w/ the .58 a/r hot side was great on the street, however, with the .63 it was a little more laggy than I liked.

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a_santos
Brasileiro Turbinado


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 59402 posted 04/16/03 02:47 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Nate,

There is a big difference between a head and a header. Alot of heads that look like they flow alot don't flow worth shit. Take a look at this article http://www.alaniztechnologies.com/augustarticle.html. I wonder why Formula 1 cars, when they used turbos, didn't use cast manifolds? The smoother the bends and the smoother the path the air has to travel through, the easier it will do so, yielding more horsepower. The ONLY reason mitsubishi uses cast manifolds is that they are cheap and easy to make, thats it. They don't flow more and they don't make more power than practically any tubular header, with some exeptions. I don't care if someone ran 9s with a cast manifold, it does not mean it is the most eficient method of extracting the hot gases from the engine. Why do we prefer mandrel bent pipes over press bent? Because they flow more due to their design. C'mon guys, if you can't see why a tubular header flows more than a cast manifold, I have nothing to say. It's clear cut, smoother path, less restiction. Header desing depends alot on combustion chamber design and cam profile, but I doubt anyone here will go out and have custom header made to match their engine, meanwhile we just use common sense.

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howard
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 59403 posted 04/16/03 03:34 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
blah blah common sense.

Abhay, you still haven't answered the main question. How do you know the tubular manifold makes more power on these cars?

A) have you measured it?
B) has ANYONE measured it? I've never seen results.
C) Again, is it WORTH THE $400-500 if it only makes xxhp more than a $150 2G/evo manifold?

Oh wait, it's tubular and shiny, it MUST be better.

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autobahntom
Senior Member
67/1000
974/1000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 59404 posted 04/16/03 04:16 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Not to throw stones, but being tubular and shiny is sort of the Chevrolet mentality. Chrome it to make it go fast. lol. So many people tell me that there is noooooooo way that a four cylinder can beat a Cobra or Vette. Then when they lose, you can pick your excuse number.
A motor is nothing more than an air pump. The more air in and out (with the correct fuel ratio) makes more power. Smoothness is a big deal, backpressure is another one, but it boils down to air/fuel in and air/fuel out.
IMO,
Tom

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autobahntom
Senior Member
67/1000
974/1000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 59405 posted 04/16/03 04:18 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
as a footnote, I have a GT12 Ball Bearing from Slowboy Racing and it flows just fine. (of course I have the supporting hardware/software to make it work also). Just need to buy a trans that will hold up under pressure now.
Tom

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GVR-4
Creative Name Huh?
77/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 59406 posted 04/16/03 04:51 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Ya know, Howard, I sit at the front of the class in the school of "SHOW ME." But I have to agree with Abhay on this one. Not only does a header have smoother bends for better flow and is equal length, but it channels the exhaust gasses to the turbine wheel better for quicker spool up. Yes it's true that the only way to prove a header is superior to a manifold is with hard data, which nobody seems to have. But would you really be surprised if it was? I would think your main contention is that the header is expensive in terms of horsepower per dollar spent. Which is probably true.

My $.02...

Dave Peter

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andy
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 59407 posted 04/16/03 08:55 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Wow, that header *LOOKS* like it flows alot! WTF???

Arguing that the header has "smooth bends" is just as dumb as arguing the cast manifold has a "straighter shot" at the turbo. How about you actually try the product, or look at people that have. You have some of the oldest resources of DSM/GVR4 info telling you that you are wasting your time, and yet you STILL try and reinvent the wheel. You know how many f*#knuts I have seem in my time that have tried to reinvent the wheel? Hell, the GVR4 guys take the cake, seems the Galants attract some REAL cukoos. [Smile] Aforementioned Crum. Scott Evans too. [Wink]

So in retrospect, go and buy the tubular manifold so you can go get your smooth bending and high flowing on, while we go and kick ass with our low tech un-cool $150 cast manifolds.

If some people could just K.I.S.S.

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Pappy
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 59408 posted 04/16/03 08:59 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I would have to say the AGP L1R is the best street turbo.

http://www.agpturbo.com/rseries.htm

maybe the L2R

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Gabor
Decal Specialist!
692/1000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 59409 posted 04/17/03 12:09 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Look at this manifold. Nice.
http://www.dsmstuff.com/pictures/misc/blingblingmani.jpg

In reality it looks like shit and the runners are half the size of the stock runners.
Took a while, but I got my money back.
I didn't buy it for the bling factor. I had to had something with the t4 flange.
Lesson learned.

Gabor
692/1000

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Hibrn8
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 59410 posted 04/17/03 12:23 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
there have been many people hitting 11's with cast manifolds becuase they didnt have the option of getting this 'nice looking' tubular manifold. thats all i have to say.

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DSSA
Old-Head


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 59411 posted 04/17/03 05:41 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
quote:
Originally posted by a_santos:
I wonder why Formula 1 cars, when they used turbos, didn't use cast manifolds? The smoother the bends and the smoother the path the air has to travel through, the easier it will do so, yielding more horsepower. The ONLY reason mitsubishi uses cast manifolds is that they are cheap and easy to make, thats it. They don't flow more and they don't make more power than practically any tubular header, with some exeptions. I don't care if someone ran 9s with a cast manifold, it does not mean it is the most eficient method of extracting the hot gases from the engine. Why do we prefer mandrel bent pipes over press bent? Because they flow more due to their design. C'mon guys, if you can't see why a tubular header flows more than a cast manifold, I have nothing to say. It's clear cut, smoother path, less restiction. Header desing depends alot on combustion chamber design and cam profile, but I doubt anyone here will go out and have custom header made to match their engine, meanwhile we just use common sense.

Why did Mitsubishi use manifolds instead of tubular headers? The same reason every manufacturer uses them...because when producing 1000s of them at a time, it's quicker and cheaper to produce them with a cast, and they tend to crack less than tubular headers. Why do formula one teams use tubular? Because it's cheaper to build a one-off tubular by far than paying $10-$15K on a cast for something they may only use once, then change the design.

The other aspect is weight.

Saying that a tubular manifold will almost always flow more than a cast manifold is a bunch of crap as well. Cast manifolds can be *EVERY* bit as free-flowing, and have even SMOOTHER transitions than tubular manifolds. It has nothing to do with them being cast or tubular, but of their design. I'd gladly offer a bet that the HKS manifold flows quite a bit better than most of the tubular 4G63 tubular headers out there.

Smooth transition paths? Doesn't get much smoother than that.

Equal length? Ditto.

Design makes the difference with flow, not composition.

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