Next Project: AIR CONDITIONING (ES-12A)

[DR1665]

After 195/2000 was in that accident, we took great care in keeping the AC system in place. In the end, it turns out the condenser core had a leak in it anyway and the AC didn't work. Bummer.

When I bought 464/1000, it had also been in an accident. Despite solid repair work, the previous owner didn't have one of the AC hard lines to complete the install. Since 195/2000 will be a race car and the AC isn't working anyway, I just yanked the lines for my daily driver Galant.

I've been driving 464 without AC all year. Do I have to mention it's been over 100* pretty much every day for the last two months down here in Phoenix? A friend of mine at the local In-N-Out meet a couple months back told me he's been using a propane mixture in all his cars for years. He gets sub-30* air out of his center vents on a dry day.

A local shop quoted me $180 to recharge 464 with R12.

Randy Hill at AutoRefrigerants.com just ran my Visa for LESS THAN $50 for a complete charge kit with their industrial ES-12A. I'm getting the equivalent of 54 ounces of R12 (actually 36 ounces of ES-12A), adapters to convert the hard line fittings from R12 to R134 spec, and the connector hose to go between the charge cans and the fittings for charging.

There's no need to pull vacuum or otherwise clean out the system once it's been vented, I mean, recovered. In my case, since the lines are all loose up in the rafters of my garage, this will be a simple, connect and charge affair. I have a new compressor and need to know how to tell if it's got enough oil in it/add if needed. Per the FSM, the entire system requires 80cc/2oz of oil, so it's not much.

I've done some serious research into this conversion and it seems like there's opinions either way. I wonder if anyone here has done this yet and, if so, what they thought.

I will update this thread with the project as it progresses. Expect pictures and How-To/Archive quality. I won't be starting work until the weekend after the Shootout, when I figure my work-on-the-Galant motivation will be at its peak for the year. In any case, I wanted to order this stuff up now so it's ready next week.

Thought I would share. Thanks.

 

[conquesttsi]

Why not do it, I see no harm. "I won't be starting work until the weekend after the Shootout, when I figure my work-on-the-Galant motivation will be at its peak for the year." I'm glad I'm not the only one that rolls this way. I have a bunch of stuff to do to 1933 post shootout as well. It will be my last hurrah sadly before fall/winter. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

[Rausch]

Quote:
I have a new compressor and need to know how to tell if it's got enough oil in it/add if needed.

If it's new, it should come loaded with about an oz in the compressor(IIRC). If it's a reman (my experience) drain what is in out and start from scratch, as it's a crap shoot. Just lay it over and let is sit (maybe over the shootout weekend?)...

I would assume you would still need to get whatever moisture out of the system before charging to maximize efficiency though, yes?

 

[toybreaker]

Quote:
There's no need to pull vacuum or otherwise clean out the system once it's been correctly evacuated by a qualified professional



Fixed that for ya!

In a dry climate like you're in, you *might* get away with that, Brian.

However, pulling a vacuum on the system before a recharge really does help system efficiency quite abit.

Quote:
I would assume you would still need to get whatever moisture out of the system before charging to maximize efficiency though, yes?



^^^See, this wise man agrees with me.

That reciever drier has been open to the elements, and I gauradamntee you it's pulled moisture out of the ambient air. Pulling a vacuum on the system overnite will get a little bit of that moisture back out, and it compleyely removes it from the evaporator core, condensor and lines.

It'll make a big difference in the efficiency of the system, trust me.

It will also allow you to leakcheck the system under vacuum. That catches about 75% of any leakage you may encounter, and the time will be very well spent if you find a leak before charging the system.

I would also replace all the o-rings on all the hoses/components with new viton units. I'd also take the opprotunity to blow the lines and condensor out with clean, dry, compressed air. (turn your regulator down, and watch where you're aiming, safety glasses would be a plus). Put a rag over the ends of the hoses, you'll probably blow out some oil.

A certified tech would tell you that you have to replace the reciever drier, and use a couple cans of "cooler dousche" in order for the system to even work...etc, etc...

This sounds like a budget operation, so I'll skate past that kind of recomendation, but it's important to note that just a little more time and some o-rings may make a big difference in how long the system will retain the refridgerant.

Quote:
If it's new, it should come loaded with about an oz in the compressor(IIRC). If it's a reman (my experience) drain what is in out and start from scratch, as it's a crap shoot. Just lay it over and let is sit (maybe over the shootout weekend?)...



Good advice, Aaron, remans are a crap shoot.

It's better to measure what you've got so you know where you're starting.


There should be a spec on how much oil you would add for replacing each component individually, and I'd just eyeball that and give it ~80% of that volume of the oil recomended by the refridgerant manufacturer for this application Even though you're going to blow the system down, some will be retained in the nooks crannies of the system.
I would also recomend you add some of the oil directly into the compressor and hand cycle it a few times to distribute the oil. Just pour the whole quantity into a little graduated cup, and try and distribute around the system some. Pour some into the lines, bungy them to the hood, and let em drain into the system for a bit. If you've got access to the cool guy inline oilcan/dye adder unit, just add the rest into the system after the first can. If you don't have the inline unit, just put as much as you can into the compressor, and add the rest to the lines.

Quote:
Do I have to mention it's been over 100* pretty much every day for the last two months down here in Phoenix?



So, what you're really saying is, "damn I shudda fixed this when it was 70* outside" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Quote:
Expect pictures and How-To/Archive quality



I'll hold you to that. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Dialcaliper]

Hydrocarbon refrigerants aren't approved for use in automotive air conditioning systems due to safety issues, for what it's worth to you. They have excellent performance and are intended for use in stationary industrial A/C units since the risk of leakage is greatly reduced.

The problem is that ES-12a is purified butane with some minor additives (Basically the same as the stuff resides in your cigarette lighter or barbecue torch), and it is quite flammable in the pure state. A great image to keep in mind is that of a giant zippo lighter in front of your radiator.

The advantage is that it is cheap and works quite well. The disadvantage is that they are rather dangerous to use in mobile A/C systems. If your condenser develops a leak, or you get into an accident that compromises the system, just keep in mind that just on the other side of the radiator, there's an exhaust manifold running well above the required ignition temperature of butane. Good recipe for an engine bay fire.

If you want an inexpensive replacement, you're probably better off using a blend refrigerant like Freeze-12, R-406a, R-409a or R-414b that is compatible with R-12 systems (You may still have to change some fittings). R-414b is probably the one I'd pick (Autofrost, Chill-it or other names), as it has properties fairly close to that of R-12. Many blends do contain some HC refrigerants, but the concentration is low enough, and enough other inert refrigerants are there to prevent it from igniting under most circumstances.

Regardless of what you put in, you should have the system vacuumed out before you charge it.

 

[464/2K]

Ill trade you my stock car for 464/1000, has perfect R12 A/c for those warm summer days! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[supersp0rt2]

I was looking into retrofitting 115 for R-134a but when looking at all the proper things that need to be done in order for the system to last it would just be cheaper to stick with R-12. Anything having to do with your A/C system isn't going to be cheap which makes doing it right the first time all the more important.

I totally agree with what toybreaker has said in regards to evacuating the system and replacing the receiver-dryer. Especially if its been open to air for any amount of time, as the receiver dryer contains a dessicant that can and will break down and cause problems in the system.

The oil is hygroscopic like brake fluid and has to be compatable with the refrigerant used. The dessicant also removes moisture to protect the system. Air when mixed with refrigerant will create carbonic acid and water will create hydrochloric or hydroflouric acid. So you see why preventing any moisture is important.

I would also recommend flushing the system and getting rid of any dirt that may have gotten in any lines as well as getting rid of any old oil. It could clog your TXV and your system will fail.

Replacing and lubing all o-rings at installation is a good idea also, here are the oil quantity specs for each component. Taken directly from the maintenance manual. Oh and check your clutch air gap too, the spec is .015 -.023"

REFILLING OF OIL IN THE AIR CONDITIONING SYSTEM
Too little oil will provide inadequate compressor lubrication and
cause a compressor failure. Too much oil will increase discharge
air temperature.
When a FX105V compressor is installed at the factory, it
contains 150 cm3 (9.2 cu.in.) of refrigerant oil. While the air
conditioning system is in operation, the oil is carried through
the entire system by the refrigerant.
Some of this oil will be trapped and retained in various parts of
the system.
When the following system components are charged, it is
necessary to add oil to the system to replace the oil being
removed with the component.
Condenser: 15 cm3 (.9 cu.in.)
Evaporator: 50 cm3 (3.1 cu.in.)
Piping: 10 cm3 (.6 cu.in.)
Receiver drier: 5 cm3 (.3 cu.in.)

Hope this helps in fixing your air conditioning and your swass. Also please stick with non combustable refrigerants for your safety and others. Good luck, I hope everything works out.

 

[turbowop]

Hey Dialcaliper, any input on my system in 503? It's supposedly charged with propane, according to the guy I bought it from, Eirik. It's been blowing fairly cold all summer, although admittedly much better on the freeway than in stop and go traffic in town.

I was worried about it at first, but I did buy the car after Eirik had a front end collision with the car. Seems the system held up. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

[jepherz]

I didn't realize there were so many types of refrigerant.

Mark, it's given that your A/C system blows colder on the freeway.

 

[turbowop]

Well, I figured that since more air is moving through the condensor. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif I just figured maybe the propane didn't work as well as R12, or maybe it just needs mOar. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Terry Posten]

I'll keep 134a and know that the only bomb is a possible fuel leak.

Do you guys know how AC leaks were searched for back a few years ago? They use a propane tank with a flame protected tip and if the flame changed colors at the vents and around fittings/core, you had a leak.

If you use propane, make sure you identify that you are using it some some mechanic with old tools does not blow your car up and of course himself and the garage.

Good luck and I hope I don't read your obit here on the site.

 

[turbowop]

Is there even enough in the whole system to make any type of "explosion"? It's not like I have a BBQ propane tank worth of propane in the car.

From what I heard, propane and R12 are similar enough that no changes had to be made to run it. Sounds like it was fairly popular some years ago.

 

[supersp0rt2]

Quoting Terry Posten:
I'll keep 134a and know that the only bomb is a possible fuel leak.

Do you guys know how AC leaks were searched for back a few years ago? They use a propane tank with a flame protected tip and if the flame changed colors at the vents and around fittings/core, you had a leak.





Yeah I believe it was called a haylide torch and when it would come in contact with the refer it would produce mustard gas. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif

Turbowop, the system holds 2 lbs of R-12 so I would think it would hold the same in propane. Depending on ambient temp the high side can reach pressures over 300 psi. Combine that with a pin hole leak and an ignition source, say glowing red turbo, and you got yourself one hell of a torch. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif

 

[Terry Posten]

A 2 sec search for es-12a brought this up.

click

You be the judge.

It is not going to be in my car. I would rather be hot than DEAD.

 

[curtis]

Propane is bad don't do it......

As for cooling things off a little better for systems try a can of gunk engine degreaser on the core, let it sit for about 30 minutes and rinse. It does help.

 

[turbowop]

I know 4x4/wheeling guys that use propane to fuel their rigs as well. Couldn't the same sh*t happen if their lines sprung a leak? How many engine fires have happened in Mitsus from just gasoline and leaking fuel lines? I've even read that R134a is flammable/combustible when it's under pressure, which it is when in the AC system. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif Maybe I should worry more, but it's been in the car for years. I've read both horror stories and good stories on the 'net about different refrigerants, so I'm a little confused honestly.

 

[Terry Posten]

Yes, 134A is flammable under pressure. The combustion temp is 750C or around 1400F.

It is MUCH safer than propane.

The problem with refrigerant vs. fuel is that the fuel stays under the car or in the engine bay. Refrigerant is inside the car beyond the firewall. There is nothing protecting the passengers except for some plastic.

 

[turbowop]

I just googled a shitload of pages having to do with propane being used as a refrigerant. This guy pretty much sums up what I was thinking:


Quote:


Contemplate driving around with a couple of cans of aerosol paint in
the floorboard or starting fluid in the trunk. In either case,
there is more flammable propellant (isobutane, usually) in little
steel foil cans laying loose there in the floor than would be in
your AC. Propane/isobutane is a little more than half as dense as
R-12. That means that if you have a HUGE system like the one on my
68 Fury which holds 3 lbs of R-12, you'd have about the same amount
of flammable gas in the spray cans as you would in the system.

Now contemplate having 80 or 100 or more lbs of flammable liquid in
a tin can behind your backside. That's what the gas tank is. And
unlike propane, when gasoline gets spread around in a crash, it
hangs in there and burns for a LONG time.

Back when I owned a welding supply wholesaler that also sold
propane, I'd take the old, leaking propane tanks that I was required
to confiscate, perforate and dispose of out to the range and
perforate them with a .300 win mag from about 300 yards. After
filling them with propane, of course With smudgepots burning
nearby, this makes a neat little FAE. While spectacular, it is
NOWHERE NEAR as spectacular as taking an old , full fuel tank out,
putting some dynamite under it and popping it. The fireball is
larger and the residue lays around and burns for many minutes. The
propane event is over with almost as quickly as the fireball
dissipates.

The flammable hysteria is the result of a skilled campaign by MACS
(mobile AC society, the PAC for the automotive AC aftermarket/repair
market) to discredit the flammables because it threatened what was
then perceived as the veritable pot of gold in retrofits. Back in
the 90-92 timeframe when George Goble, myself and others were
working on alternatives, the consensus was that retrofitting for
R-134a would cost around a thousand bux. It still does if you do it
right. Simple drop-ins would have destroyed this pot of gold.
'Specially when this computer nerd (George Goble) held a key
patent. Macs did things that would have made 20-20 and their rocket
motors on the gas tank stunt proud. In one instance they made a
video tank purporting to show a car blowing up from a flammable
refrigerant leak. Turns out they had to put a 20 lb propane tank
with the valve open in the vehicle to get enough propane to explode.
Once you get used to it, it's easy to pick out MACS propaganda
verbiage. Really makes me sick to hear said verbiage from some
counter guy or mechanic, for I know they've bought the MACS
propaganda hook, line and sinker without actually thinking about the
issue.

Flammables weren't the only ones MACS went after. They went after
George's R-406a drop-in R-12 replacement with a vengeance, using
their bought-and-paid-for EPA to keep him off the market until it
was practically too late. MACS and the industry OWNED EPA under
Bush senior. Klinton was more interested in getting his woody
scrubbed than he was undoing the Bush damage, though EPA did back
off a bit.

Flammables are gaining widespread acceptance in Europe, even in
household refrigerators. More rational minds, minds not paid for,
govern there. They realize that the couple of ounces of flammable
refrigerant just doesn't matter safety-wise.

One other thing to keep in mind is that an aerosol of R-12 and oil
or R-134a and oil as would be formed with a sudden system breach, is
also flammable and explosive. George did a stunning video tape
(after getting EPA permission to vent some R-12!) showing a huge jet
of flame coming from a venting charging cylinder containing a normal
automotive R-12/mineral oil mix.

Once barrier hoses are fitted (propane goes right through
non-barrier-hoses), the standard propane/isobutane mix works
indistinguishably from from R-12. No need to buy the hyped stuff -
one can easily mix their own using isobutane camp stove fuel and
propane torch fuel (don't ask me for instructions - search the web
for instructions!) Don't use gas grill gas - it's usually saturated
with water.

Not a flame. Just thought some first hand info from someone who's
been in the trenches would be useful to the discussion.

John






Now, I'm not saying this is right or wrong. I'm just trying to get some real facts on this stuff. I'm just a tad skeptical on propane being "ZOMG dangerous!!11" to use as a refrigerant. I'm open ears if anybody has good reasons or first hand experience with bad experiences from the stuff. I'm more worried about the three gallons of methanol in the trunk of 1051 than I am the propane in the AC system of 503. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/noes.gif

 

[toybreaker]

Quoting Terry Posten:
I'll keep 134a and know that the only bomb is a possible fuel leak.

Do you guys know how AC leaks were searched for back a few years ago? They use a propane tank with a flame protected tip and if the flame changed colors at the vents and around fittings/core, you had a leak.



Yea, the old school shade tree guys had some questionable tactics, but hardly anybody ever actually died, (just ask stumpy, or lefty, they'll tell it straight /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif )



Quoting supersp0rt2:
I believe it was called a haylide torch and when it would come in contact with the refer it would produce mustard gas. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif



Can always tell when someone actually knows the subject, and your posts in this thread have been excellent. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/applause.gif

You bring up an important point, if you don't use an identifier (a sort of an electronic sniffer that can identify the actual contents of what's in your system), or you evacuate the system and start from scratch, you have no idea what kind of witches brew is in there.

You can always tell when you are dealing with a professional, as the first thing they do is run the identification proccess. Professional grade equipment is very expensive, and knowing what's in the system will allow them to service it without damaging their expensive equipment.

Non~certified mooks just hook up a gauge set and start adding their choice of refigerant untill the high and low side pressures just "look" right. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif

Quoting Turbowop:
It's supposedly charged with propane, according to the guy I bought it from,



Mark, my recomondation to anyone with a quasi-functioning system is to have a professional use an identifier on the contents, and then go from there. Many corner gas stations, and all the good shops will have it. A beer or two would probably get one of your buddies to break out the identifier.

After identiying what's actually in the system, hooking up a set of gauges will tell the rest of the tale as far as charge state/system health.

Quoting Turbowop:
It's been blowing fairly cold all summer, although admittedly much better on the freeway than in stop and go traffic in town.



If it ain't broke... and it's hot outside, don't fawk with it.

Wait for the fall when you won't miss it if things go awry during service.



Quoting Curtis:
As for cooling things off a little better for systems try a can of gunk engine degreaser on the core, let it sit for about 30 minutes and rinse. It does help.



^^^That's damn good advice!

Restricted airflow thru the condensor will increase the load on the system quite a bit higher and reduce it's efficiency dramatically at low airspeeds in extremely hot weather like you guys just had up there.

Just shine a flashlight thru all the cores from the back, and give it a quick look see.

If it's clogged with dirt/debris, Curtis's trick will work wonders!

I usually do this any time I have the radiator out or the front of the car apart for maintainance, as the best results will come from flushing the condensor from the back towards the front.

 

[DR1665]

Appreciate the continued, in-depth discussion, gents!

I'm not worried about flame up, as the ES-12A I'm getting actually has a higher flash point than either R12 or R134. It's got a "fresh pine scent" to let me know if I've got any leaks (although I'll be getting new o-rings for all the fittings before hand).

I've got the new compressor (came in a Coors box, so no paperwork, but it's got the Mitsubishi label on it "FK105V" or something like that. There's only one obvious fitting for oil, but it's a schrader valve-looking thing (it was late and I didn't have my contacts in). Should I open that up? This compressor is spotlessly clean aside from some oily residue down the side from chillin' in the box. Right now, it's on a drip pan on its side (to drain if it can, over Shootout weekend).

I'm going to see about scoring some serious desiccant from work today and see about sealing up the drier with it for the next week or so. (I've seen bags the size of Big Macs.) It might be pointless, but why not, right? I'm not replacing the dryer or the condenser core (although I *will* take that in and run it through the parts cleaner before installation).

Otherwise, I just need to get to the joint what sells that matched car paint in a spray can so I can lose my non-Kensington core support while I've got everything removed. Planning on taking it all apart, prepping, and painting next Friday night, letting it sit all Saturday, and then putting it all back together Saturday night. (Avoiding as much sunlight as possible, but we'll see.)