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Coil Packs and Dwell Time

toybreaker

iconoclast
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
Messages
3,581
Ryan,

I haven't really looked into the connectors yet. There may be something that uses the same connector as the ignitor, but I don't know of it offhand.

It sounds like Roger has a really good handle on things, and It'll be interesting to see what he comes up with.

If you need anything, just shoot me a pm.

I love to see people try new things, so if I can contribute anything to the cause, let me know.

You guys just might be on to something here. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worthy.gif
 

prove_it

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 3, 2008
Messages
4,201
Location
Sioux Falls, SD
Quoting galant1517:
I know that this thread has focused primarily on COP. However, do you believe one would also be justified in doing this on a stock coiled car?
P.S. Thanks to Roger B. Scott and Broxma.



I got beat to the punch on asking this question too. I don't enough electrical theory to support my opinion and would love to hear Brox and Roger go into detail on this, but I feel like it would be too much for either the coil pack or the transistors. I'm not sure though. I do know that the stock coils can handle 500+hp without issues so in my opinion it would be adding a potential problem to a system that isn't broke.
 

belize1334

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 18, 2003
Messages
3,316
Location
Bozeman, MT
Increasing the peak current will benefit OEM coils just the same as COP. Now, is it necessary? Probably not. Remember that the COP setups are inferior to OEM in terms of energy for a given current so increasing the current is meant to give them a boost and bring them back into spec.

Building a plug-n-play harness that allowed for the installation of dual igniters would be a huge boon. The great thing about this would be that you could also incorporate a main power relay as per Toybreaker's suggestion or just wire it straight to the old power supply, without in anyway modifying the existing harness. Unfortunately I can't think of anything that shows promise as far as mimicking the igniter plug. What may work, though, would be to find a spare igniter (or a burnt out igniter) and then cut it in half, hollow it out, and solder to the interior leads.

I may be out of town next weekend but if I'm not I'll head to the junkyard and see if I can scrounge any more bits. In the mean time, if anybody comes across a dead '91+ igniter and want's to play "what's inside" you might try cracking it open and seeing if it would be possible to solder leads to the terminals and convert it into a secondary harness.
 
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prove_it

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Jul 3, 2008
Messages
4,201
Location
Sioux Falls, SD
I haven't been able to find anything else as of yet. I know AC delco makes a huge load of replacement connectors. Hopefully I can dig into a catalog and do some digging. I'm planning on playing out at the salvage yard on Saturday and can grab several connectors. If anyone is interested, PM me and I'll see about getting some in the mail.

I've decided against hacking and trying this out as of right now. I want to wait and try to wire it up pro style rather have hacking it and getting to busy to finish it properly. I want to improve the ground and power circuits, as toybreaker made some very valid points regarding that. I have full faith in the research done here and I'm pretty much sold that this mod will correct the COP issues that have plagued us.

Has anyone grabbed any logs or videos yet?
 

broxma

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 16, 2009
Messages
911
Location
San Antonio Tx
I still have the ignitors mounted to their backplates. I just drilled out a hole to 10mm on the backplate to mount them. They are still in the same stock configuration essentially, just mounted differently on the car.

Steve and I went out and monitored boost and spark. I ran into a spark issue at around 20-21 PSI at max load (Around 6500) in second gear. It only happened one time and I haven't checked out the root cause. I cannot categorically verify boost level because the hose running to the gauge was loose and may have lost several pounds at the connection. A project for later this week is to build the gauge plate for under the radio with a -30/30 peak hold electric gauge.

Tomorrow I am hopefully getting the timing belt done on the wife's car and then putting more time in on the ignitor wiring to make it a bit more sound. Can we confirm what the proper resistance should be through the 300m coil at the connector pins? I have a box of the things and would like to make sure I am not using one that is less than able.

For the harness, I had an idea. I believe that some of the MAS sensors had the male side screwed onto the MAS itself. Fundamentally, you might be able to use that male side and just solder the ignitor harness onto it. If none are screwed on, you could certainly cannibalize one for the purpose. I have a few laying around and can take a look.

/brox
 

belize1334

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 18, 2003
Messages
3,316
Location
Bozeman, MT
My coils read 0.8 Ohm for two in series and each reads 0.4 Ohm individually. I cannot guarantee that this is the proper value or that my multimeter is properly calibrated. If I were you I'd measure them all and pick four that are the most closely matched.
 

alansupra94

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 3, 2010
Messages
1,909
Location
Wayne,NJ
I think my head exploded.

Carry on as I will read more in-depth when I get my AEM EMS (although I am not sure if it applies to me anymore if I have it)
 

belize1334

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 18, 2003
Messages
3,316
Location
Bozeman, MT
It should still be applicable. While AEM allows you to adjust dwell time, the point of the dual igniters is to increase the maximum theoretical current value which is not something that you can do by just increasing the dwell time.

I should also point out that it could be some time before I end up performing this mod on my own vehicle. I haven't had ANY symptoms yet that the plug-n-play COP that I built is limiting my power. At ~20psi on my 14b I don't get any breakup. The real proof is gonna be from brox and others with bigger turbos who are pushing the limits of the ignition system. I'm staying tuned for the final word but so far it seems like we're getting thumbs up from that corner.
 
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cheekychimp

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Joined
Apr 19, 2004
Messages
7,333
Location
East Sussex, U.K.
Quoting broxma:


If I could verify a coil with a higher natural voltage and better dwell time I would make a plate for them to test them out but information on such things is often not available. I do have some Toyota coils from a V6 Camry or something that appear beefy but who knows how they perform in reality.

/brox



Brox,

I cannot verify this because I never tried it, but I was told Mercury Marine Coils are the best you can get for this application, just bulky.
 

prove_it

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 3, 2008
Messages
4,201
Location
Sioux Falls, SD
Quoting broxma:

For the harness, I had an idea. I believe that some of the MAS sensors had the male side screwed onto the MAS itself. Fundamentally, you might be able to use that male side and just solder the ignitor harness onto it. If none are screwed on, you could certainly cannibalize one for the purpose. I have a few laying around and can take a look.

/brox



Bam, you nailed the harness source dead on. I headed out to the yard today and found one MAS and checked the plugs. It had a removable connector once I pulled the back cover off and cut the leads coming off the board. There is still plenty of lead to solder a harness to. Looks like a plug and play is an option at this point. However I could not find anything else that would work, so in order to build a plug and play you'll need a MAS laying around to hack up.

Has anyone figured out Toybreaker concerns about frying the ECU from increased loads?
 

belize1334

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 18, 2003
Messages
3,316
Location
Bozeman, MT
Are you saying that the MAS plug actually fits with the 7-pin '91 igniter or just that it's a source for a male/female pair that can be used to build a harness?

I'll have some free time tomorrow so I can see what kind of current draw we get on the signal side of the igniter. Then maybe I can get some word from the ECU buffs about what that side can support.
 

toybreaker

iconoclast
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
Messages
3,581
Quoting Prove It:


Has anyone figured out Toybreaker concerns about frying the ECU from increased loads?







We've already exceeded my meager understanding of things quite a few posts ago. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

It is important to note the ecu doesn't "see" the coil load, it only "sees" one leg of the transistor in the ignitor module.

It's that transistor that is controlling the coil action. The coil current is switched and carried by that transistor in the ignitor case. That loading goes out to ground on the large black wire from terminal #3 of the ignitor.

We are potentially doubling the switching load at the ecu by doubling up the ignitors, but it may very well turn out to be a non issue. ( I just like to cover all the bases /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif )




Another subject I know very little about is the dynamics of what occures when we charge the coils.

Inductive reactance, counter electro motive force and all those other big words Curtis would mis-spell have to enter into this equation somewhere.

The very act of trying to charge a coil creates some interesting anomolies.

As the coil voltage rises, a magnetic field begins to form.

that's our goal, a strong, stable, consitent field

But, as the field strength increases, it will begin to resist the incoming current.

How much "resistance" (for lack of the proper term) is felt by the charging device will vary on a million little details, but there's no way around the physics of the effect.

The effect of this is seen by watching the current draw and magnetic field during the coil charging cycle.

When the circuit is first turned on, large amounts of current begin to flow, as there's no field to work against. (the only thing resisting the flow of current is the raw resistance of the inductor (wire)

As the field begins to build, the current flow begines to taper off.
the very magnetic field we are trying to create begins to resist the additional current
The resistance of the circuit is now a mix of straight resistance in the inductor, and an ever increasing amount of inductive reactance.

As the field strength grows, the anount of resistance in the wire becomes trivial, and it's the inductive reactance side of things that will take over as the determining factor in the time/current equation.

This means that just measuring the resistance of a coil only tells a very small part of the story...

We could be talking about ten turns of fine wire, a hundred turns of medium size wire, or ahtousand turns of larger wire ...

The "resistance" would read the same on a meter ... but boy howdy ... will they have a different resistance to charge!

.... and different charge times to field saturation ...

That's the whole key to this operation.

Finding a coil with the right turns ratio to make a decent spark on the secondary side, without melting things down or failing to reach full saturation on the primary side.

The guy that figures that out will be able to make a bulletproof system.




caveat I know jack sh*t about the laboratory side of this stuff, I just have a little hands on from back in the day.

Swapping out points for an hei systems was a common mod back in the day.

Kenn Inn is probably the only other guy on this board that knows how sweet those days were.

I was hanging "late model" (80's /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif ) Bosch guts into old school porsche distributors, fabbing up the harnesses, and making good money doing it.

Took a few false starts, and I burned up a few ignitors and coils along the way, I did ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif, but the end results were worth it!

I hope you guys can achieve the same success!

(minus the burning sh*t up stage of the r & d proccess /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif )
 
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toybreaker

iconoclast
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
Messages
3,581
Quoting broxma:
I am almost certain the coils are not directional. They work regardless of which wire is connected to pos/neg.

/brox



The coils may be non-directional, but the current required to fire the plug backwards from the center electrode to the ground strap is most definately orders of magnitude higher to jump from the center electrode to the ground strap.

... learned this one the hard way ...
 

broxma

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 16, 2009
Messages
911
Location
San Antonio Tx
Quoting belize1334:
Are you saying that the MAS plug actually fits with the 7-pin '91 igniter or just that it's a source for a male/female pair that can be used to build a harness?



I am. It is the exact same harness plug with a wire in a different position. If we could remove the pin and relocate it, everything would hook right up.

I have run into a problem with my car not at all related to the ignition system. Basically I had a bad break in due to not enough hone on the cylinders during the rebuild. I am in the process of remedying this now but in the meantime...

I pulled the plugs out the other day when I was diagnosing my lack of compression and found I had been running spark gaps in the range of 27 or so. I know that factory spec has a value listed around this however this is way to high for a high boost application. At spark gaps from 27-30 or so, the car still has intermittent skip of the ignition firing. The general response to this is drop the gap to reduce the resistance between the poles on the plug. Over at EvoM, there have been many discussions about spark gap using different ignitions and I had generally settled on a gap of about 22 for my Evo which runs like a clock at 25+ PSI. Consequently, I dropped the gap down to 22 and magically all issues are gone. Once I have the rebuild done, I will do some testing with in car video for different levels at a steady PSI.

I am also going to do some power tests to the dual ignitor system to see what type of output I am getting from the ignitors to the coils.

/brox
 

broxma

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 16, 2009
Messages
911
Location
San Antonio Tx
Under what guideline could we assume a coil to be better than another? Would a simple check for resistance across the main plug pins be able to categorically say one coil has more winding, more resistance and should perform better? Is a higher resistance in this case better?

The Chrysler coils show about .7 by my RMS meter. I found a coil off a Camry today which relative in size is much larger than the Chrysler coils, has essentially the same mounting profile and measures 1.4 across the pins. I assume this means more coil. I assume this means better coil. I can take a picture and show you the exact coils I picked up but they came off an early 2000 Toyota V6, I believe a Camry.

/brox
 

SouthCaliVR4

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 31, 2010
Messages
984
Location
North county San Diego
If so that would rock, I have a set of toyota v6 coils sitting on my box. I was debating building a plate & giving them a try.
 

I don't know if it means anything, but I sold parts for about 3 years. The parts store I worked at moved over $35k in parts PER DAY. I sold hundreds of F-150 5.4 coils, a few chrysler coils, but I never sold a toyota COP coil. Ever. That tells me that they don't fail. I think it would be worth a try.
 

broxma

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 16, 2009
Messages
911
Location
San Antonio Tx
The funny thing about the Toyota coils is the top is just a clear silicone plug material. You can see the coil through it.

/brox
 

curtis

Well-known member
Joined
May 4, 2003
Messages
11,892
Location
Clarksville TN
Well ford coils are junk sh*t for sure don't even think about those or those damn pencil bike coils some use. Alot you see for sale used on ebay are there because there sh*t and have broken down internally and been replaced under recall from the bike dealers. I have a set of mitsubishi coils from a Grand Vitara. Yea I know but there mitsubishi coils. But the windings are smaller on those sexy little units but just don't have the punch I would bet. As for non directional and directional the 300m intrepid coils can be charged in either direction.

Here's the napkin drawing that I've used for 30 plus plates I've built that we/me came up with years ago when I did the thread on all of this. You can feed 1 then 4 or 4 then 1 or the same with 2 and 3 but wired up any other way want run. I showed this to some of my professors at school and they couldn't figure out what was going on and said it shouldn't run but it being a wasted spark makes it work I guess. If the 1 and 4 are tied straight together I think its the charge time that keeps it from going but back when I did this I think I wired them up with every possible way and this was the only way they would run. My buddy tried his evo and we never got it to work and then after he bought a CDi box would dedicate a day to waste on getting it going. Now with a cdi box I'm sure each coil could be ran from its own circuit and would be fine. I have 2 old school HKS boxes here for when the car goes back together but haven't found any instructions on how to wire them up.




As for what you guys are doing bravo, I'm not a spark chasing type but I really think the whole twin transistor steps will work if paired up correctly with the correct wiring and heat sinks. As for that try a computer repair shop I'm sure they have some large heat sinks with big fans laying around for cheap. Most computer fans are 12 volt dc as well so your set and the fancy heat sink greases are any where from 3 to 9 bucks at radio shack for a microscopic tube. There's different grades. I bought the cheaper white stuff for my plasma cutter this spring during its rebuild because thats what was there already.


Another thing to do is mod the springs in the boots to lower the resistivity of the transfer of current. I always cut the boots down in lenght then solder a piece of copper braid into the spring. The resistivity drops to nothing point nothing.


If you guys need any help with this yell and I'll try to be of assistance. Have a mill and may have some heat sink ideas for you.
 

belize1334

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Joined
Nov 18, 2003
Messages
3,316
Location
Bozeman, MT
In order to qualify directly whether a coil is "better" than the OEM coil, you need for it to satisfy two conditions. It needs to store more energy at full charge and it needs to achieve full charge as fast or faster than the OEM coils in order to respond in the time allowed. Now, the current achieved over infinite charge time is just I=V/R. And the energy stored by that current is E=(1/2)L I^2 = (1/2) L (V/R) ^2 = (1/2) V ^2 * (L / R^2)... that is, the energy rises with L but falls off with R^2. Now, to ensure that the charge time be similar to the OEM coils, we have to define T = L/R. That is the characteristic time for a RL circuit to rise to 70% of it's max possible current. So, keeping R/L roughly the same as stock, I can explore what happens of their either BOTH bigger than stock or BOTH smaller. Rewrite the energy to keep T = L/R fixed and we have, E = (1/2) V^2 T/R. That is, keeping T fixed the energy still depends on 1/R. So, if you want to store MORE energy and keep the same charging time, you should DECREASE the resistance AND the inductance while keeping the ratio of R/L approximately fixed.

SO, the stock coils have R=0.8 Ohm and L=3.9mH which puts T=5ms. If you want to replace them with BETTER coils then you'll want to look for coils which have BOTH R and L smaller than these values while maintaining T = L/R ~ 5 ms. The intrepid coils, unfortunately, do not do this. They come in at R=0.8Ohm and L=2.9mH when wired in series. That makes the value of T slightly shorter (which is ok) but also lowers the stored energy (which is less awesome). Hense the doubling of the igniters which should lower the system resistance and bring T back into line as well as raising the stored energy.

And remember, resistance and inductance BOTH add normally in series and reciprocally when in parallel. So, if you're looking at a set of four coils you have to figure out whether to put them in series or parallel in order to get them to duplicate the values of the two OEM coils.



As for the question of the spark going the wrong way over the plug. Unless you're dealing with an inherently directional material, such as a diode or a pnp junction, all of electricity, including currents, fields, potentials, plasma currents, etc, is invariant under interchange of sign. There is NO reason to expect that it should be harder to ionize the spark gap from the ground strap to the electrode than from the electrode to the ground strap.

To see that this MUST be the case, inspect the diagram for the OEM coils. Each coil only has ONE secondary coil and it connects to both spark plugs (one on each end). When it discharges the current flows down through on plug and up through the other to complete the path. The plugs themselves couldn't care less which direction the charge is flowing. In fact, I suspect that the discharge current is actually A/C and not D/C given that the oscillating field necessary to induce the breakdown voltage would have to be EXTREMELY FAST in order to build up to the necessary strength. That means that in the time it takes to discharge the spark the current over a single plug is likely switching direction over and over, making polarity an inapplicable concept.

If you say that you had issues with wiring one of the coils backwards then I SUSPECT that it was a wiring problem. Notice that the Intrepid coils on have three available terminals. For simplicity lets call them T1, T2 and SP. Normally you hook power to T1, ground to T2, and the spark plug to SP. When the secondary fires T2 is disconnected so the current must be across T1 and SP. That means that T2->SP must be an impossible path or else we'd have had a short over T1/T2 during the charge cycle. Now, if you wire the coil backwards then it charges fine (in reverse) but the discharge goes wrong. That's because you're switching T1 to open at the point of discharge. But SP is attempting to pull current from T1 which is not connected to anything and thus kills the discharge event.

For my proposed variation to the wiring, the above problem is solved by hooking T1 from two different coils together. The first coil in the series charges backwards and the second coil charges normally. Then, at discharge, the T2 of coil two is not an open channel since it goes to the igniter ground which is open at this point. And the T2 from coil 1 is also not in the current loop since there is no SP -> T2 connection in the coils. The first coil tries to push from SP to T1 and the second coil pulls from T1 to SP. It's like a snake eating it's own tail and it makes a local current loop, feeding down over the first plug, through the head, up the second plug, through coil 2, across the connected T1 ports, and down coil 1 into the first plug again...

Now this is all speculation and I haven't wired it up yet. When I do, I suspect that I won't notice any difference. The proof, if there is any, will be that it works just as well as the other way and the benefit will be unnoticeable. But it will, in principle, reduce the current demand of the ignition circuit just a little and that'll please my sensibility.
 
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