A Tale of two TiALs (FAIL)

[NateCrisman]

Quoting BarnesMobile:
I'm seriously confused by the American Capitalism comment. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I think I've come to the conclusion that china-bay parts is like the car part equivelent to movies from bit-torrent. You can't get away with it for free, but you can get away with it for less.




I really don't think of this bov as "stolen" like Bit-Torrents are to software. I don't believe TiAL holds any patent on a simple diaphragm/piston valve that is well...the same thing that 25 other manufacturers produce that function the same way for the same intended use. This XSpower bov looks similar and mounts to the same flange. It's extremely similar. But in all honesty, it's different enough in details and cosmetics that I'd guess that it doesn't violate any kind of patents Tial has anyway.


Seriously, do you guys sh*t a brick that a Motorola cell phone is the same basic design as another brand cell phone?
Do you sh*t a brick about cheap brand LCD TV's being damn near the same thing as a brand name Sony Aquios TV? (flat screen, buttons on side, wires in back)

Just arguing devil's advocate here btw. I'm realistic to know this valve is a direct knockoff of a real tial. It's a china copy marketed to steal sales from the USA company TiAL. But that's the way the world works. That's the way american companies work. (plenty of them are involved with the import, distribution, marketing, and sales).

Taking someone else's good idea or design and making it cheaper IS THE AMERICAN WAY OF BUSINESS. That is capitalism at it's root....taking advantage of what you can to make a buck.

 

[turbowop]

Taking somebody else's product and copying it exactly but with shittier quality materials and workmanship is not the "American way", IMO. It's douchebagism.

 

[NateCrisman]

The the current state of USA industry is doushbagism. Anyone that thinks more than 1% of USA corperations management won't lie, steal, & cheat to make $1 more profit is in a completely delusional state. It's certainly not the american ideal, but it's the hard true reality. TiAL might be in that 1% that is owner operated small business that is run by real ethical people, but they are a small sad minority in this world.

Not to mention this BOV in question is slightly different in many ways for the parts that are not "off the shelf - generic supplied parts". The body, disk, stem, and top hat are machined different and cosmetically different than a Tial. It's not a direct copy any more than a schwin bicycle is a copy of a huffy bicycle.

Not to mention, if XSpower can sell a product with as good function for a fraction of the price, then by the standards of capitalism....XSpower deserves my business and TiAL deserves to go to bankruptcy. In MY OPINION the XSpower bov is 85% as good as the Tial and less than 1/3 the price...IE better value.

 

[ApexHunter]

My biggest gripe about the whole knockoff market is that the consumer ends up supporting this company that is capable of copying but not necessarily innovating. So then what do we leave ourselves with after we put the innovator out of business because we buy the cheap copy? Part of what you pay for when you buy a brand name item is the R&D. These chinabay copycats get to bypass that often expensive part of the process. I'm all for saving a buck wherever i can cause let's face it, this is not a cheap hobby. I just try and by used or shop around for the best deal i can find.

 

[NateCrisman]

I will agree with ApexHunter. But I will add one point: There is a grey area in which some products lay, and I feel the bov is one of them: in that there really is nothing innovative about TiAL's bov design. It's a simple valve not a complex machine. There are only so many ways to make a bov and in the end the only differences between an HKS, Greddy, Tial, turboxs, forge end up being cosmetic design, fitment to a specific application, and size/shape details. When a product is as basic as a simple two chamber valve, I don't think you can apply for or obtain a patent because the design/function is so simple that it's considered common knowledge. You know, like why goodyear doesn't have a pattent on "rubber tire"

To that end, TiAL's bov design was unchanged from like 1997 to just recently when the recirqulated version and the Q came out. Tial isn't at all expending huge sums of R&D money designing a simple bov or even continually updating the exisiting design. I suppose the point could be made that Tial is lucky that these knockoff's have only come out after they had a good decade of sales without any R&D expense. It's not like Tial designed the valve last week and Chinabay copy was on ebay the next.


Again, Im sure I come off as an unpatriotic douschebag red commie in this thread /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif whatever. I like arguing the unpopular side of things just for fun, maybe in the same twisted way that I like building my DSM's with shitty parts just because it's a different challenge than throwing cubic dollars at it. (the same reason why I will never buy FP products) (the same reason that I have DSMlink on the car, but am quite ashamed of it..it's too spendy of a part)

 

[IncorpoRatedX]

Quoting NateCrisman:
I hope your anus catches fire the next time you shop in a walmart, buy a cell phone, or buy/use pretty much any product in the commercialized world (damn near everything is a copy off or improvement in value/cost from another companies product). Don't be all high and mightly about a stupid bov.

Actually, I think the manufacturing quality of this $30 bov is 97% as good as an authentic Tial bov. The materials and machine work are perfectly fine for the intended use. The diaphragm, Vband clamp, hose nipple, banjo bolt, oring and crush washers, I wouldn't be surprised if they came out of the same part supply bin as an actual tial. Basicly, I wouldn't call this part "cheap sh*t" since the build quality is actually pretty nice. Better than the price would suggest and better than some brand name BOV I have used in the past. (like those dogshit TurboXS "held on with set screws" bov).





i actually have a knock off tial on my car. Came on it, but the car only has a 14b /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif

i also detest walmart, mostly because it's america f***ing itself. but i dont actually have a problem with chinese made sh*t, i buy stuff from dealextreme.com often, i heard china is unionizing though? so maybe this sh*t will step up some in quality and cost

 

[464/2K]

Your a photographer right? I hope someone steals your photos and sells them to make profit, then well see how much you bitch and whine.

It is a simple design, and in the 25,26 years of aftermarket performance only one has came up with a design so unique.

I just hate when people WANT to help a company that did nothing but copy a part a company took pride in. Not only that but they are a USA company.

 

[mitsuturbo]

Quoting Alpha Male:
you bought cheap ebay knock off sh*t.

i hope your engine blows up... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif


/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif

I don't think there's anyone here who hasn't bought cheap sh*t from ebay at some time or another.

 

[thecman02]

Quoting 464/2K:
Your a photographer right? I hope someone steals your photos and sells them to make profit, then well see how much you bitch and whine.

It is a simple design, and in the 25,26 years of aftermarket performance only one has came up with a design so unique.

I just hate when people WANT to help a company that did nothing but copy a part a company took pride in. Not only that but they are a USA company.



Not only that but it is a Michigan company and Michigan needs all the help it can get.

 

[Nartanian]

Holy crap, what's the big deal? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif He just bought a freakin chinese BOV and is sharing his results. Don't see why there needs to be a huge debate over this. Also, the photography analogy is complete fail. Stealing a direct picture/image is nothing like implementing a design that is known to work. All cars drive on 4 wheels. No matter what manufacturer, it's nothing but a standard design just like a BOV is designed to relief excess air. They didn't steal their name, or logo but rather produced their own BOV with similar engineering for a cheaper price.

 

[SmoothCustomer]

^^Agreed.

 

[NateCrisman]

Quoting 464/2K:
Your a photographer right? I hope someone steals your photos and sells them to make profit, then well see how much you bitch and whine.

It is a simple design, and in the 25,26 years of aftermarket performance only one has came up with a design so unique.

I just hate when people WANT to help a company that did nothing but copy a part a company took pride in. Not only that but they are a USA company.



Yeah, that analogy is completely wrong. My photographs are copyrighted works. (well, that would be if I cared enough about them to actually send disks to the copyright office). If someone were to literally STEAL photographs off my website or client for commercial use then I would have legal standing to sue for damages and I would win in court. In your analogy rules and law were broken and an actual THEFT had occured.

Tial has no patent on the bov design. They have no legal standing to go on. Chinabay, XSpower, and anyone marketing or selling this BOV everyone is worked up over HAS BROKEN NO LAWS. THEY HAVE NOT INFRINGED ON ANY PATENTS OR COPYRIGHT. It may be shitty ethics, but that's to be expected in business (which is by nature completely dog eat dog) If it's not illegal, it's completely fair game. Any other company is free to manufacture and market their own version of a bov at any price so long as they aren't using TiAL logo, direct copy Tial engineering, or advertising. Actually, everywhere I found online that was retail selling this generic bov for about $80 (sold under 3 of 4 different names), doesn't even mention TiAL at all. It's just sold as a generic 50mm valve.


The correct analogy to this BOV situation and my photography is this; and I deal with it often. Say hypothetically I go to a bicycle race and take photographs to sell to the participants. Say I'm charging $20 per photo and they are of very good quality. There is some guy following me around with his D40 camera & kit lens *lets just say he's of Chinese decent for fun*. Every time I lift my camera to shoot, I hear him clicking away 5 steps behind my shoulder. At the end of the day I see him passing out flyers in the pits selling his photographs for $5 each. His shots aren't quite as sharp as mine, maybe his are not as well composed, but they get the job done in respect to what the customer wants. That guy basically "copied" my work by following me around and using my experience to get the cool angles and lighting. He undercuts me in cost using cheap equipment and no formal training. (analogous to cheap china manufacturing labor). He markets and sells his photographs on his own (just like XSpower does).

THAT IS COMPETITION and there isn't a thing I can do about it other than try to make my photography so much better than his that customers can justify my 400% higher price OR I can cut my costs and margin to compete with him on price. OR I suppose I can find something else to take photographs of that won't have direct competition. It's kinda shitty of the guy to stand behind me and copy my shots, but what am I going to do? kick the guy's ass? He has just as much legal right to stand there and shoot as I do.



BTW: does TiAL even make the comparable bov anymore or was it discontinued when they introduced the Q valve? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif

 

[NateCrisman]

And is it just me, or does this whole "made in the USA" and "buy products made in michigan because they need all the help they can get" talk reek of hypocrisy on a message board dedicated to Japanese made cars where everyone jumps up and down about JDM parts?

Seriously, playing the BUY USA MADE card is something I would expect on a camaro or mustang forum /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif Mitusibishi cars, JDM bumpers, German AMG stuff is all ok, but you use a non-USA valve and your not supporting your country. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hsugh.gif

 

[NateCrisman]

Quoting Alpha Male:



i actually have a knock off tial on my car.

i also detest walmart, mostly because it's america f***ing itself. but i dont actually have a problem with chinese made sh*t, i buy stuff from dealextreme.com often, i heard china is unionizing though? so maybe this sh*t will step up some in quality and cost



Hello Mr Kettle. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/applause.gif I wish expensive engine failure on you too. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif

 

[thecman02]

There is lots of hypocrisy, but I do go out of my way to help local economy if I can. Everyone is guilty of not buying domestic sh*t. I'm hoping you aren't targeting me. Michigan does need all the help it can get, and I do what I can to help. My tial wastegate is east side of the state. My turbo is partly made on the west side of the state. Most of the go fast goodies on my car are US based companies.

I also agree with your statement of capitalism at its finest. Paid less for a product and got what you paid for. It did its job for the most part for a cheaper price. Once the knock offs come out its time to improve the design. Innovate so that it takes so much engineering to get the part right that it can't be knocked off successfully. Competition is good, it makes people step up.

I'm not for ripoffs of patented sh*t though. Not saying this is one of those cases though. I think the appropriate analogy would be you doing an event and instead of some chinese guy taking a picture with inferior sh*t.... he buys your picture for $20 then takes it to a copying machine and photo copies it. Sells it for $5 and ruins your market.

Blatent stealing = bad. Competition making your own product = good.

 

[NateCrisman]

Quoting thecman02:
There is lots of hypocrisy, but I do go out of my way to help local economy if I can. Everyone is guilty of not buying domestic sh*t. I'm hoping you aren't targeting me. Michigan does need all the help it can get, and I do what I can to help. My tial wastegate is east side of the state. My turbo is partly made on the west side of the state. Most of the go fast goodies on my car are US based companies.




XS-POWER
817 BEAVER DAM ROAD
CREEDMOOR , NC 27522 - 7107

HOW TO ORDER

Fax us at 919-528-1739

Email: [email protected]

I hear North Carolina is still part of the USA and they can use all the help it can get too. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jawdrop.gif

All Im saying is that I don't want to be bitched at with the "made in the USA" card by people who also buy foreign made and designed parts and whole cars. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

So when it's convienent for you to buy american "when you can" for "most" of your aftermarket parts...that's being a good citizen.

But when it's not convienent for me to buy a USA valve that I feel is of lower value than the other legal options, I should be demonized and looked down on.

Quoting thecman02:
There is lots of hypocrisy



Agree'd /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[thecman02]

I think the main thing here, is the bov isn't an exact replica, so I don't see the harm in it. They changed things to make it cheaper, and made it over seas with cheaper labor. I never wished ill things about peoples cars blowing up .

 

[NateCrisman]

Ok.,..truce offering. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worthy.gif

Seriously, this got way off track, and I got my panties in a bunch over stupid internet arguing. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif which is unseemly and embarrassing . haha


The new correctly functioning valve that I put on #139 yesterday does not seem to change the boost curve at all, it's still spiking to 25psi and settling down to 21psi just like before with the same AEM Tru-Boost setting. So I jumped the gun a bit in theorizing that the valve was leaking boost and hurting engine power. Either way, it was interesting to me. The older style one will go back on my talon tomorrow after I buy a good old "made in china" nut from my local hardware store.

 

[turbowop]

How hard is it to change the cosmetics of the valve so that it doesn't look like an exact replica? f***. I don't really give a sh*t what people put on their cars, but Chinese replicas annoy the sh*t out of me. It's not the same as a bike looks like a bike or a car looks like a car due to the same amount of wheels/tires. At least they all look cosmetically different. I figure the Chinese can build whatever the f*** valves they want, but at least change the looks. It's pretty blatant.

 

[NateCrisman]

I don't know how much of a bicycle expert you are, but if you pull the stickers off a Specialized, a Huffy, a Trek, and a $100 chinese copy bicycle frame I don't think I or 99.95% of consumers could tell you the difference. How is that not the same?


Are you suggesting that if whomever actually manufactures the XSpower BOV had dome something like leave a solid ring around the outside 6 bolt holes, made round vents in the body, and maybe had the top hat completely flat on top with an XS engraving......then it would be fine with you.


Im actually comparing this XSpower in my hand to pics of real tial valves on the internet and I can see quite a few cosmetic differences on top of the actual mechanical design differences.