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1g head or 2g head


thedsmguy
Senior Member


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 901180 posted 05/23/10 09:44 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I have both heads, the 2g I have has been modded to fit the 6 bolt block (cas and larger head bolts) Or, I have stock 1g heads.

I've read a lot that says 2g is the way to go.. Anyone want to chime in? How about all the sensors that connect to the intake manifold?

Thanks.

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4thStroke
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 901196 posted 05/23/10 10:51 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
From my understanding, 1g has larger runners where as the 2g runners are more narrow. A lot of it comes down to what you are after, weigh it out with your other mods. Volume vs. velocity.

My 1 head is ported. I don't know how much the porting actually helped, but my car is the highest 92oct Evo3 16G English has built and dynod.

Since you have the parts available and in hand, cleaning up the runners of the 2g head may not be a bad idea at all.

I don't know how noticeable of a difference the 1g would be from the 2g head. Alone, I don;t think it would be worth much, but when matched with other parts, it may compliment them nicely.

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1qkfwd
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 901197 posted 05/23/10 10:52 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
2g head hands down. Downside, the stock 2g intake. You will need an evo3, rvr, or a smim. The 2g head is almost identical to an evo head. The 1g ports are just to big for street cars. There's alot of midrange to gain by switching to a 2g head.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 901233 posted 05/24/10 06:05 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
2G head has a different (more efficent) coolant chamber, along with IMO better design if you want to do your own port work. Having the larger exhaust stud in the corners is nice esp for heaver setups, the evo8/9 use the larger studs for all the head to ex. manifold studs. One of my 2G heads I did has evo style port work with some radial and bowl work. ported 2G IM, tang cut along radial of runners, port matched to head. Stock valves, backcut special. Pulls insanely hard compared to a 1g head port volume street car
-Make sure if you use a 2G head to clearence the head bolt where oil feeds from the block. Just because the studs fit doesnt mean enough'oil is going thru

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cheekychimp Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 901236 posted 05/24/10 06:48 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I found this on the 4g61 forums and I am pretty sure the author is a member on here (FlyingEagle???): -

So, are we talking about 1.8L NA heads fitted to 2.0L NA engines in Europe? That would explain the smaller combustion chambers but the larger port sizes. Also OTOH would we be looking at these engines as being shipped to their respective countries?

Europe: DOHC - NO turbo options from Mitsubishi
4g61 1.6L with "16" Head casting featuring 43 cc combustion chamber 10:1 CR small ports No "18" head option ever installed by the factory, or turbo option either
4g67 1.8L with "18" Head casting featuring 43 cc combustion chamber 10.5:1 CR big ports
4g63 2.0L with "20" Head casting featuring 47 cc combustion chamber 10.5:1 CR big ports
4g64 2.4L with "18"("20"?) Head casting featuring 43 cc combustion chamber big ports

North America: DOHC
4g61 1.6L with "16" Head casting 43 cc combustion chamber small ports
4g61 1.6L T with "16" Head casting 43 cc combustion chamber 8.0:1 CR small ports
4g67 1.8L with "18" Head casting featuring 43 cc combustion chamber big ports
4g63 2.0L with "20" Head casting featuring 47 cc combustion chamber big ports
4g63 2.0L T with "20" Head casting featuring 47 cc combustion chamber big ports 1st Gen
4g63 2.0L T with "20" Head casting featuring 47 cc combustion chamber medium ports? 2nd Gen
4g64 2.4L with "18"("20"?) Head casting featuring 43 cc combustion chamber big ports

Australia + New Zealand: DOHC
4g61 1.6L with "16" Head casting featuring 43 cc combustions chamber small ports (some heads came with large intakes/small exhaust ports)
4g61 1.6L with "18" Head casting featuring 43 cc combustions chamber big ports (2 users report the #4 printed beside the 18 reference)
4g61 1.6L T with "16" Head casting featuring 43 cc combustion chamber 8.0:1 CR small ports
4g67 1.8L with "18" Head casting featuring 43 cc combustion chamber big ports
4g63 2.0L with "20" Head casting featuring 47 cc combustion chamber? small ports
4g63 2.0L T with "20" Head casting featuring 47 cc combustion chamber big ports 1st Gen
4g63 2.0L T with "20" Head casting featuring 47 cc combustion chamber medium ports? 2nd Gen
4g64 2.4L with 43 cc combustion chamber big ports

JDM Japan + Caribbean: DOHC
4g63 2.0L with "18" Head casting featuring 43 cc combustion chamber big ports
4g63 2.0L with "20" Head casting featuring 47 cc combustion chamber big ports
4g61 1.6L with "16" Head casting featuring 43 cc combustion chamber small ports
4g61 1.6L T with "16" Head casting featuring 43 cc combustion chamber small ports
4g61 1.6L T with "18" Head casting featuring 43 cc combustion chamber big ports

It's pretty interesting. Someone suggested a while back about using a 4g61 head on a 4g63 block for higher compression and with a conservative tune on relatively low boost I think it would be a pretty good plan for a daily driver actually. I think that the small port head might offer similar benefits as the 2G head with higher compression. No ideas on the exhaust studs however.

I'm hoping to get hold of an NA AMG head as well. I'm interested to see how that is ported/setup and if there would be any benefits to running that. I'm beginning to wonder if that might just be a 4g61 head with a modified valve train, different cams and maybe some mild port work/matching



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3rdstrikedsm
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 901302 posted 05/24/10 11:30 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting 1qkfwd:

2g head hands down. Downside, the stock 2g intake. You will need an evo3, rvr, or a smim. The 2g head is almost identical to an evo head. The 1g ports are just to big for street cars. There's alot of midrange to gain by switching to a 2g head.




^^^This



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MMCVR4
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 901541 posted 05/25/10 01:01 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Here is a tech tip from RRE. click

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Spyke169
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 903024 posted 05/29/10 11:29 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I have been looking for a while now, and can't find the answer. Is it possible to use the cyclone intake manifold on the 2g head?



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fuel
"Just to be pedantic!"


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 903028 posted 05/29/10 11:42 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
you could but there would be a massive step in size difference in the flange/gasket where the manifold would meet the inlet ports - that wont do any good for flow at all.



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fuel
"Just to be pedantic!"


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 903029 posted 05/29/10 11:45 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting cheekychimp:

I'm hoping to get hold of an NA AMG head as well. I'm interested to see how that is ported/setup and if there would be any benefits to running that. I'm beginning to wonder if that might just be a 4g61 head with a modified valve train, different cams and maybe some mild port work/matching




AMG head has big ports, and as far as I know is the same as the normal N/A and turbo 1G 4G63 DOHC head with the exception of the cams and valve-train.



'91 E39A Galant VR-4 Evolution | '80 A164A Eterna GSR Turbo

-- Visit my JDM Galant VR-4 info & specifications site here! --


Edited by fuel (05/29/10 11:45 PM)

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Spyke169
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 903125 posted 05/30/10 02:20 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Anyone with experience know what would give better low/mid range torque? 2g head or 1g with working cyclone?



'90 Galant GSX, Daily Driver
'93 TSI AWD, Project Car
Sold the VR4s that I have owned, miss them everyday.

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NateCrisman
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 903158 posted 05/30/10 06:13 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting 1qkfwd:

2g head hands down. Downside, the stock 2g intake. You will need an evo3, rvr, or a smim. The 2g head is almost identical to an evo head. The 1g ports are just to big for street cars. There's alot of midrange to gain by switching to a 2g head.




The key there is the intake manifold. I'v been doing DSM's since like 1996 and I can remember 2g car after 2g car "back in the day' picking up power and mph at the dragstrip after swapping to either 1g head/intake manifold or doing the whole 6bolt block swap due to a crankwalked motor (even with the lower compression stock 1g motor). I also remember taking a 2g head and hogging the intake port out to fit a stock 1g intake manifold to not being spectacular either.

The 2G head/intake combo didn't just become awesome over the last decade with no changes. What changed: people found the Evo3 intake manifold and learned to port the 2g head correctly.

The Evo3 intake manifold w/ ported 2g head...maybe it's better than stock 1g/1g parts. I haven't seen anyone compare it back to back. SMIM with 2g head flange on a 2G head, maybe that's better than stock 1g/1g parts as well. Again, I don't know and I haven't seen it honestly tested.

All I can say with 100% certainty is that putting a stock 2g head and intake manifold on is going to choke the car on anything larger than a 14b. I'v seen 2g cars pick up mph and ET at the dragstrip enough times going from stock 2g/2g to stock 1g/1g top ends that you couldn't pay me to run a stock 2g intake manifold and head.

Granted, Im not intersted in the slightest at anything below 5500rpm since I'm a dragstrip guy. Midrange power from 3000-5500rpm is pretty much useless.



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cheekychimp Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 903265 posted 05/31/10 10:16 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
It is actually a shame that with the number of regular guys building these cars with Mitsubishi OEM parts and junkyard finds that no-one has done back to back testing of such combos on a stock block. I guess it's an expensive exercise to find out the best 'street' setup especially when it is such a subjective issue. I mean the roads I saw in the States were nothing like the ones I usually drive on here in Hong Kong.

I've often wondered if a straight EVO III setup throttle body to O2 housing on a 6 bolt motor would be better than using the Cyclone manifold on a 1G head with an EVO III exhaust, turbo and O2 housing.

What about a Cyclone manifold with welded ports blended back out to match a 2G head? Should make for awesome low end and mid range and since the cyclone flows less than the 1G and 2G intake manifolds it should just react like a stroker on a smaller scale.

It IS hard trying to make a decision. I can tell you, over here I rarely have an opportunity to push to 100-120 mph, even on the highways there is just too much traffic. I live at 5000 rpms or under 80% of the time so a stroker made perfect sense to me and a 1G head seemed most appropriate for that. But it's not perfect!

I need an engine that revs fast, gives me full boost between 3000 and 3500 rpms, but that can idle in traffic jams for an hour without overheating. I don't need a huge amount of power actually, under 400 AWHP would suffice. But here's the kicker, whilst I don't need to rev like mad to make power up top, on the hill climbs around here I need a car that can live at 7,000 rpms ideally to haul uphill in low gears and maintain torque in the numerous switchbacks.

Like I said, the Stroker and 1G head aren't perfect but I figure on making it through on brute force and making peak torque early on. Would a 2G head help? I don't know.

I thought about a long rod 2.0 litre build, but where the hell do I find a turbo that gets 20 psi under 3000 rpms AND can still flow enough to go to 9000 rpms or higher. True divided T3 manifold and a dual ball bearing twin scroll?



Getting old sucks ... but it sure beats the alternative !!!

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1qkfwd
Member
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 903454 posted 06/01/10 12:47 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I would never suggest 2g head/2g intake. The stock 2g intake and t/b is embarassing on how small it is. The head must be paired with an aftermarket intake or the jdm versions as a stock replacement. I should do some testing since I have everything in my shop. I'm installing a 75k engine in my galant so I can finish building off the block that's in there. The car is running sd so what ever changes I make part wise I'll see in the ve tables. I think the only way to get the most out of the cyclone intake would be to port it out. I think I'll start with 1g head/intake, then maybe swap on an unported cyclone, then a ported one (luckly I've got two), then I'll be dropping in my built engine with 2g/ported rvr intake. This would be done on a dbb pte6262. I might have to get a crackin on this one.



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Launch
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 903465 posted 06/01/10 01:16 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
You could properly match a cyclone manifold to a 2g head if so desired, but mitsu went to the 2G style IM to gain the benefits of the split length runners without the weight of the heavy cyclone, and the valve system to open. (in my ASSumption)

-2g Head with 2G IM.
Use a evo 8/9 IM gasket as a guide to port match head and intake..
port matched for 1G/60mm throttle body
-Quality port and valve work goes along way. Radial, lots of bowl work. On stock valves,even better when cut.

... and some Fp cams


Edited by Launch (06/01/10 01:18 AM)

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Spyke169
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 903699 posted 06/01/10 10:41 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting cheekychimp:



I thought about a long rod 2.0 litre build, but where the hell do I find a turbo that gets 20 psi under 3000 rpms AND can still flow enough to go to 9000 rpms or higher. True divided T3 manifold and a dual ball bearing twin scroll?




How about a vvt or vgt turbo? I talked to curtis a while ago after he posted some pics of a He351ve from a 07 and up dodge pickup. He was at the time working on a program to control it.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 903715 posted 06/01/10 11:28 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
im also going through the same issue in choosing a head.
I need something that will flow up top though. and kisner swore to the 2g head. he runs a 2g head on a 6 bolt and has broken 1000 awhp and the 10s on pump. so that being a first head account makes me want to lean that way, but evewryone online says the 1g head is better up top.
FYI he revs to 11k so i know the 2g will do it. the question is will the 1g do better?



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Spyke169
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 903728 posted 06/02/10 12:12 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Does he have the 2g head ported, from what I have heard a 2g head can be ported larger than a 1g. Anyone confirm this? or have more info on the head he is running?



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1qkfwd
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 903778 posted 06/02/10 04:28 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
My decision was made when I read a post on dsmtuners from kiggly. He is running a 2g head and has a best time of 8.3 in a fwd. He said he ran high 8s on a barely touch 2g head. It now has mild port work, I believe most the work was unshrouding the valves and bowl work. Another good example is curt brown is switching all his cars he builds over to 2g heads. He even on his site only sells the jmf intake manifold for a 2g head in a 1g. If these high performers are switching over to 2g heads then there must be some gains.



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NateCrisman
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 903787 posted 06/02/10 07:15 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
So it seems the conclusion is that the 2G head is the best route to go IF and ONLY IF you have an Evo3 or JMF 2G intake manifold. The stock 2g intake manifold is tuned for low rpm and the cyclone intake is the same low rpm tuning (and doesn't even fit correctly)

All in all, unless you are trying to break records for a given turbo or class, my personal opinion is that we are not at all talking a "make or break" part. People have gone plenty fast on stock 1g heads for this whole time, and while the 2g head might be a little better, it's not an order of magnitude but a small percentage better. IE I think on a general 500hp car we are talking about a 5hp difference not a 50hp difference between 1g and 2g head. We aren't talking the difference between stock iron mustang 5.0L heads and aftermarket trickflow Aluminum heads.

Remember Curt brown goes nuts over things like ceremic wheel bearings, $2000 lightweight brakes, and FP68 turbochargers.....you have to take his opinion with a grain of salt. He knows every trick in the book and will take EVERY performanceadvantage no matter how small of a benefit for the dollar. While he may think the 20lb weight loss of lightweight brakes is worth two grand (more than some of us spend for the whole car) and say this is a "must have" part, for the rest of us it might be a waste of money and effort.

I suspect most people fretting "which head to use" are in that boat, where the effort and expense is better used on improving other areas of the engine/car/tuning/setup.



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GVR4 #431/1000: [email protected]+
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Edited by NateCrisman (06/02/10 07:18 AM)

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 904543 posted 06/04/10 06:41 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
2g head with evo3 intake gt35...


click
click



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 905212 posted 06/07/10 12:40 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I am currently running a 2g head with a 1g intake manifold. The intake side of the head is port matched to the 1g intake. there's a step in the head if you try to use the 1g IM on a 2g head. I didn't like it, so i port matched. while i don't have any numbers to prove it. On the butt dyno, the car did feel like it had better mid range although my small 16g runs out of steam up top so after 6300rpm can't really help you guys there.






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uncleben4rice
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 905955 posted 06/09/10 11:23 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Talked with my tuners over at FFTEC and the most bang for the buck is with the mildly built 2g head with the evo3 manifold. They have tested many different combos. It works better then any aftermarket intake on the 2g head. I dont know all the particulars of the set up. I do know the car is very fast and reliable. I was at the track and the car went 10.01 and he drove it over 200 miles that day to and from the track. That is enough for me to say the 2g head and the evo3 manifold are next for me. I am glad I did not go out and buy a $1000 sheet metal manifold. Now to sell my built 1g head and get a 2g and evo3 intake . I know this about the car in addition to the built 2g head and evo3 intake mani,it has a built bottom end, kelford 272 cams, gt35, on race gas. Call Dave at FFTEC he will gladly talk to you about the tech, flow, mumbo jumbo.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1248252 posted 01/31/20 10:02 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting cheekychimp:


North America: DOHC
4g61 1.6L with "16" Head casting 43 cc combustion chamber small ports
4g61 1.6L T with "16" Head casting 43 cc combustion chamber 8.0:1 CR small ports
4g67 1.8L with "18" Head casting featuring 43 cc combustion chamber big ports
4g63 2.0L with "20" Head casting featuring 47 cc combustion chamber big ports
4g63 2.0L T with "20" Head casting featuring 47 cc combustion chamber big ports 1st Gen
4g63 2.0L T with "20" Head casting featuring 47 cc combustion chamber medium ports? 2nd Gen
4g64 2.4L with "18"("20"?) Head casting featuring 43 cc combustion chamber big ports






Wicked old post, but just adding the correction to this information, that the DOHC 4g64 as found in the 94 Galant GS, is not a Big port. It's a small port head identical to a 2g DSM 4g63 head. I picked one up last year, only to find out it was small port head and when looking in ASA it's the same part # as the 2nd gen DSMs.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1248264 posted 02/02/20 11:31 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
I'll update the original posting on the other org.

Its good to find any errors in my old posting, or anything current. Sometimes you get a little cross eyed from all the numbers you are trying to post about.

Good catch and the ASA facts to back it up too!

To confirm, what do you think the combustion chamber CC comes in at? Were 2G heads using similar 43 or 47 CC sizings? I know nothing of them.



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