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Engine build update Bad news


Drdamm21
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 955663 posted 12/07/10 06:12 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Ok now the engine is out of my 91 gvr I have been making a list of what I should go with. I keeping my 6bolt but I am considering going with a head from a 7 bolt ? Not sure of the advantages there or just getting a 5 angle valve job on my factory head.... Next build my block with 2nd get pistons and rods ? Then all the stuff that broke taking it out ... The wire harness was so damn dry and brittle its gonna take forever making sure its working right .next are the goodies im thinking 660cc injectors a walbro 255 pump and a fmic all using dsm link lite . Anything else I should consider as a power option for low cost thanks all for the help. Jist pulled all the baering caps and there is one that spun then broke in 2 so the crank looks pretty trashed and the rods well at least 1 looks totally shot


Edited by Drdamm21 (01/27/11 10:56 PM)

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broxma
retard monkey strength
379/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 955670 posted 12/07/10 06:40 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Any minor benefit, low end torque in this case, from swapping to a 2G head is eliminated under two conditions. First, you will most likely have to do the same work to either head, and you already have the original, so cost is identical with the addition of the 2G head, intake, etc, which in this case, favors using the 1G. Second, the 2G head has some slight benefit at low HP levels. That benefit is traded off for maximum flow however at high HP levels, but theoretically either head will flow any power you are probably looking to make.

Onto the Piston/rods. The purchase price and machine work for the 2G piston - 1G rod combo will be at least half if not more than just buying forged. Save your money and do it right the first time.

And you can run an Evo 8 ECU for less than DSMLink provided you won a laptop already.

/brox



I am big into recycling though and if your not into sacrifice or burnt offerings, you may want to stick with 93 octane.

/brox

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Drdamm21
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 955698 posted 12/07/10 08:26 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Only looking to get about 300 to 350 whp ! And I did not want to change all my maf stuff this is why I was thinking dsm link I dont know about using an evo 8 ecu or what goes into this as for other mods only a front mount intercooler and im running a small 16g turbo and stock exaust maybe 3 inch all the way out if buget allows

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Drdamm21
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 955706 posted 12/07/10 08:51 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Well my buget is 2000 to 2500 and im a newb so im asking so I can get it right now .... I like bolt on stuff so what ever is going to be good and not to the moon on cost I will be happy with 300 at the wheels

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boostedinaz
Fatty McButterpants
1101/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 955793 posted 12/08/10 09:44 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
IMO I would go with 2G pistons on the stokc 1G rods. It might be about the same as forged pistons but at the power levels you will be running a forged pistons isn't needed. If you wanetd to make big power the rods would be the limiting factory anyway so I really see no need for forged pistons.

The car already has a 16G on it so getting another one is wasting money. EVO injectors can support a decent amount of power but if you wanted a little wiggle room 660s wouldn't be bad. A 255 is also a good choice ut you'll need a fuel pressure regulator to make it work correctly. I believe you said you already have one so that's a plus. An EVO FMIC can be had cheap and will easily support the power you want to make.

You can run all kinds of tuning software, the easiest would be DSMlink lite. Sure you can put an EVO ecu in it once you rewire the harness, find an ECU, etc... All great but way to much work, IMO, for a daily driver only looking for 300 WHP.

A lot of people will let their build get out of control and over budget in a hurry. If you keep things simple and proven all while keeping an eye out for decent used parts it can be done. My "EVO setup" I was going to put on the car was cheap and all was built from Mitsu with 100K reliabilty built in.

EVO 550 maybe a 100.00 used.
EVO pump 50.00 all day long
EVO FMIC 50.00 if you look around 100-125 if your in a hurry.
Pippng for the FMIC maybe 100-150 depending on who makes it.

That's 500.00 in parts that with time and a good tune could make 300 AWHP AND be super reliable. That leaves almost 2K for the motor build. The little things will nickel and diem you budget into nothing don't let other bigeer tickets items do it much quicker.

Just my .02



Michael
The rebuild of 1101

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mitsuturbo
Banthony
555/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 955796 posted 12/08/10 10:28 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Don't pay extra for a 5 angle valve job. Industry standard is a 3 angle, and being charged more for a 5 angle is just not worth it. If you want to go nuts, you can find a machine shop that is tooled up with a Serdi and a radius cutter. They'll do a radius cut for the same price or minimally more than a 3 angle if you wish (usually). It takes them the same amount of effort, really.

If you can find rods already machined for 2g pistons for around $75, you'd probably be ahead. That's usually the minimum you'll end up paying just to have the small end bored to 22mm. Then you've got to pay for clipping the caps and honing the big ends back out to spec. Allow about $160 more in machine work to recondition rods, and fit pistons. Now you're at about $235, and that's considering the machine work to be fairly inexpensive. Go even more conservative, and take a shot saying it'd run you $200. Shot peening, cleaning.. will add more cost. You can buy Eagles for what.. about $300? (i think i paid 270 for mine) Problem there, is they're not press fit, you'd need pistons to match. Stock type pistons are all press fit. If you want to use ARP rod bolts.. there's a bunch more money in parts and work.

You can pick up a set of forged slugs for ~400, and put them on forged rods yourself, thereby saving on machine shop work there. To the tune of $60-$90 vs a press fit setup. That offsets the cost a little. They already come with ARP bolts.. possibly some more cost offset there as well.

I did the math on it all once, and found that i'd be far better off going with forged bottom end parts over a 1g/2g combo.

If you want to do it on the cheap, then just go with a stock bottom end. Guys have been making 400+ hp EASILY on stock for two decades now.

EDIT: It looks like you can buy 1g/2g combos assembled for around ~400 if you provide a good core set of rods. I'd still go with stock or forged, though. The cost difference is in the pistons, really. It's about $200-$300

click



92 GVR4 555/1000 11.41 @ 128.26mph
97 CBR900RR
2012 Hyundai Veloster


Edited by mitsuturbo (12/08/10 10:37 AM)

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Drdamm21
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 955819 posted 12/08/10 11:44 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Wow guys thanks for the info I like the 2g pistons and 6bolt frankenstine rods for 300 looks good and michael thanks for the info on the intercooler stuff thanks

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boostedinaz
Fatty McButterpants
1101/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 955823 posted 12/08/10 11:58 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
A few years back I had a my short block machined and assembled with 1G rods 2G pistons for 660.00, plus the price of the pistons. The head was rebuilt for right at 300.00. This was in AZ at local machines shops you can send your stuff to tomorrow.

Let's say the price of the pistons is 400.00 to be on the high side so 1300-1400 for all machine work and maybe 200.00 for a real MHI complete engine gasket kit. So all in all you are looking at about 1600.00 for a fresh motor and can save some by using stock pistons (that you will still have to buy since it would be best to go .020 over) or buy forged pistons for about the same price.

Be realisitic though. I have seen a TON of car builds that start out as only wanting 300 AWHP then it's only an extra 200.00 for X part so they pick it up, and it's only an extra 50.00 for Y part so they pick it up too. "We'll if I decide to go really big one day I'll be ready for it." The porblem is they run out of money and the car never goes "big" and has an amazing motor that will support 11 billion HP but they only have a 16G. Of course the hoses are still old and rotted, the radiator might have a small leak, the TB needs a rebuild but of course they have no money to deal with that stuff now because they blew it.

Get the car back on the road with a reliable motor that has as much as possible replaced and cleaned up. If two years after that you decided to build a fire breathing monster then save up for the parts and do it then. It's much more fun to drive a car that look at it year after year telling people who bad ass it will be.......someday.

Again my .02



Michael
The rebuild of 1101


Edited by boostedinaz (12/08/10 12:02 PM)

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See4Ways
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 955838 posted 12/08/10 12:33 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
big 16G = not gonna have 300 horsepower at the wheels.

If you run big 16g at 20-21 psi its about maxed out
with all the supporting mods, this setup is great for the street and feels gret on the ass dyno.

But in reality, not gonna be 300 horsepower, not that it matters. My goal is always to just have enough that its fun on the road, makes good track times, and still reliable/streetable. alot of people have identical setups and yet run much slower or faster than someone else with those same mods. Plus very few people dyno their cars, and most dynos either short you or exaggerate your numbers.

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DR1665
Kill him in the face with Wilson Phillips


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 955855 posted 12/08/10 01:46 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Seems to me you've been standing curbside at a parade of failure, dude. Do you really want to complicate things any more than they already are?

You gotta crawl before you walk or run, brother. Forget all the talk of mixing and matching internals and components simply because "You're going to be doing the work anyway." There's merit to that line of thinking, but unless you're somehow completely unlike every other member of this community, you want the car to run like a champ, reliably, and for the least amount of money.

One of the reasons 4G63-power is so appealing to the masses is because a healthy 4G63 has been proven to handle upwards of 400hp on stock internals. The closer to that you go, the more critical maintenance and tuning become, but I just don't see the point in spending a red cent more than you absolutely have to on a rebuild for a street car.

A healthy, well-maintained, STOCK 4G63T with an E316G and supporting BOLT-ON mods, that is decently tuned will be PLENTY capable of providing MORE FUN than is probably legal. I say, keep your engine - the foundation of your entire project - simple and strong. Support it with smart mods that align with your goals for the vehicle (not rampant internet parrot logic), and ENJOY IT.

There's no reason to bother with anything more than a stock 4G63 until you know WTF you're doing at 400hp and beyond.



Brian | 98 Pajero | Gearbox Magazine

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Drdamm21
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 955875 posted 12/08/10 03:40 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Wow what the heck am I thinking then im gonna spend a bunch of money and then blow myself up it sounds like . More than anything I want it to run good and be fun I always wanted this car and then I bought one and right away it had problems and then befor I could see how fun they are it dies on my motor ceased so now I just dont want this to happen again I understand my logic is bad that more money is bad then I want stronger and less guess work like when I got it thanks again to all that have posted

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mitsuturbo
Banthony
555/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 955892 posted 12/08/10 04:51 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Stock rebuild + bolt ons = some of the most reliable power i have seen.



92 GVR4 555/1000 11.41 @ 128.26mph
97 CBR900RR
2012 Hyundai Veloster

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Ian M
waiting for the bus
487/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 955947 posted 12/08/10 06:51 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Yet another vote for a stock engine for your 300hp goal. I don't see the point of overengineering the wheel,especially since you are on a budget. If it's still healthy it's certainly capable of dipping in the 11's untouched (other than maintenance stuff of course), even down to the stock cams.



#487/2000 Summit White

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cheekychimp Galant VR4.org Moderator
Director of Housing and Urban Development, and carbon/kevlar balls


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 956039 posted 12/09/10 05:02 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting See4Ways:

big 16G = not gonna have 300 horsepower at the wheels.

If you run big 16g at 20-21 psi its about maxed out
with all the supporting mods, this setup is great for the street and feels gret on the ass dyno.

But in reality, not gonna be 300 horsepower, not that it matters. My goal is always to just have enough that its fun on the road, makes good track times, and still reliable/streetable. alot of people have identical setups and yet run much slower or faster than someone else with those same mods. Plus very few people dyno their cars, and most dynos either short you or exaggerate your numbers.




I like your attitude, far too many people get obsessed by the numbers game and all too often it seems they fuck up a perfectly good runing car for the sake of 20-40 horses and really stop enjoying the car as a result. Dyno numbers like you say should never be taken as gospel (far too many variables involved) but a dyno is a great tuning tool and an excellent indicator of how cost effective mods are if you can check power output before and after changing your setup.

I think you are being a bit harsh on the little turbos though. I think that the OP said he has a Small 16G not a Big 16G actually but even then I don't think 300 WHP is out of the question. IIRC the numbers and power guestimates are as follows: -

Small 16G Flow 34lbs Max Output 320 WHP
Big 16G Flow 38lbs Max Output ???
EVO III Flow 42lbs Max Output 350 WHP

Now Tom Noonen made 400 WHP an an EVO III and I think someone did make 350 on a Small 16G. I don't doubt that some serious tuning ability went into this and these figures are probably way beyond the capabilities of your average Joe but I don't think it's impossible.

The RS VR4 came stock with the Big 16G and was rated at 240 crank horsepower, so at 22% loss we'll call that 187 at the wheels. But that was on stock cams, 1G exhaust manifold, cyclone intake, stock exhaust and 510cc injectors at about 7psi. I think there is room for significant power gains there without engine work.

I'd be interested to hear your comments though. I'm looking to put together a nice mild setup for my other car without doing a major engine build, and I want to try all three 16G turbos at some point. I'm really just going to be trying some extrude honing of stock cast components, some minor reworking of the engine bay to put in short route intercooler piping. Has anyone ever noticed the stock radiator position is off centre which prevents you running short route piping as it stands. I'd like to make 300-320 WHP off a Small 16G at 18-21 psi but we'll see. I want to run EVO III pistons as they are easy to get here, but at 9.0:1 CR I'm not sure how much boost they can take.



Getting old sucks ... but it sure beats the alternative !!!

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Muskrat
Senior Member
665/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 956046 posted 12/09/10 07:25 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting Ian M:

Yet another vote for a stock engine for your 300hp goal. I don't see the point of overengineering the wheel,especially since you are on a budget. If it's still healthy it's certainly capable of dipping in the 11's untouched (other than maintenance stuff of course), even down to the stock cams.




There is a reason for a non-stock build, actually. Do you need forged internals? Nope. But there are advantages to using something other than stock. These car's are notoriously lack-luster off boost. There's no low end torque because they come with a ridiculously low CR. Bumping compression up to 8.5:1 is fairly typical, wont break the bank, and will help solve this problem, making the car much more street-able.

You can get a 1g rod/non-oem 2g piston combo for $300 right now at DSM Graveyard. These would be fine for what you're doing. You could also spend $500 for same with OEM pistons. Or $575 with Evo 9 pistons. But not really needed.

Or you could spend $4-500 on a set of Ross pistons (not forged). Or $5-600 on a set of forged Wiseco's.

As for headwork, a stock rebuild will be fine for your goals. That'll run you about $200.



Brian L.
91 Galant VR-4 #665/2000


Edited by Muskrat (12/09/10 07:45 AM)

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mitsuturbo
Banthony
555/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 956080 posted 12/09/10 10:09 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
$400-500 for ross pistons that are NOT forged?!??

Is this a typo, or just some sort of misinformation?
Or have i been deceived all these years, thinking Ross has been selling forged piston sets for $400-500?



92 GVR4 555/1000 11.41 @ 128.26mph
97 CBR900RR
2012 Hyundai Veloster

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Muskrat
Senior Member
665/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 956081 posted 12/09/10 10:15 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Wow, chill out. Maybe I was mistaken, I thought Ross pistons weren't forged. I know they're a popular budget piston, which is why I suggested them. Never run them myself, or really researched them.




Brian L.
91 Galant VR-4 #665/2000


Edited by Muskrat (12/09/10 10:23 AM)

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mitsuturbo
Banthony
555/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 956084 posted 12/09/10 10:30 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
If you know somewhere that will do a full rebuild of a 4g63 head for $200, you'd better let us all in on your secret. I'm sure whoever is doing it would love to have more business.
I've never paid less than about $350, and that was if i assembled it myself. Also, its not a good idea to go assembling a head yourself if you're putting high tension springs and big cams in. The stem height needs to be set up properly, and the spring seat pressure should be verified. You can't really do this at home.
For a budget head build, you can't go wrong with ordering a whole head kit from ENGNBLDR on ebay. The sets of Valves, Lifters, and Guides he sells are pretty good, and hold up very well. I know it sounds silly, but it's a good idea to replace the shitty stock valves with solid 1pc stainless valves. Stock valves have a much greater tendency to snap off and rattle around in the cylinders if a timing belt incident should occur. At least with better valves, the worst thing you have to worry about is bent valves and cracked guides.. rather than ported pistons.



92 GVR4 555/1000 11.41 @ 128.26mph
97 CBR900RR
2012 Hyundai Veloster

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boostedinaz
Fatty McButterpants
1101/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 956090 posted 12/09/10 11:00 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
As I have mentioned already in this thread a local machine shop charges 300.00 for a 4G head to be rebuilt if it's not trashed. That's assembled and ready to slap on. I have had them do 4 heads for me and the most expensive was 325.00 because two valves were bent and needed to be replaced.

Seems like a bunch of people are trying to over complicate a basic rebuild for no reason.



Michael
The rebuild of 1101

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Drdamm21
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 956098 posted 12/09/10 11:26 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Guy this is all great info my will be the 300.00 frankenstein rods on 2g pistons as well as a full head build going with prev advice for only a 3 angle valve job I might go with custom cams but this will depend on the cost for the total build as im not risk fouling this up. Then I will need to find someone here in arizona who can help me hone and measure for the new pistons ... I can do the rest .. I will get help from michael tuning with my small 16 using dsmlink lite and if it feels good I dont care about the numbers ... Thanks to all

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Drdamm21
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 956100 posted 12/09/10 11:41 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Also what is a good set of cams to look for thanks

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Muskrat
Senior Member
665/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 956101 posted 12/09/10 11:42 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

If you know somewhere that will do a full rebuild of a 4g63 head for $200, you'd better let us all in on your secret. I'm sure whoever is doing it would love to have more business.




Ah, sorry, $289 right now. click



Brian L.
91 Galant VR-4 #665/2000

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Boostdtalon
Member +++


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 956109 posted 12/09/10 12:15 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
The labor when I got my head rebuilt was $220. I already had the parts I wanted installed.

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mitsuturbo
Banthony
555/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 956110 posted 12/09/10 12:30 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
289, on sale
That's a good deal if they're local to you. Otherwise shipping is going to put you right back up to ~325.
That's also a far cry from $200. I was just sayin' it's never as cheap as you think it's going to be. EVER.

As for cams? Kelford and GSC seem to be rated/reviewed as the best right now. I went with kelfords and got a deal on them at $525 i believe.

I keep hearing/reading to stay away from Brian Crower cams. Their pricing is appealing, but apparently that's the only appealing thing about them.

EDIT: keep in mind, when i said i've never paid less than about 350, it's likely because i WILL NOT have a head rebuilt without REPLACING the 20 year old guides. This also lends to added costs.



92 GVR4 555/1000 11.41 @ 128.26mph
97 CBR900RR
2012 Hyundai Veloster


Edited by mitsuturbo (12/09/10 12:34 PM)

Posts: 3537 | From: Near Seattle, Washington | Member Since: 06/02/08 | IP: (130.76.32.198) | Report this post to a Moderator

Muskrat
Senior Member
665/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 956114 posted 12/09/10 12:40 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
Quote:


289, on sale
That's a good deal if they're local to you. Otherwise shipping is going to put you right back up to ~325.
That's also a far cry from $200. I was just sayin' it's never as cheap as you think it's going to be. EVER.

EDIT: keep in mind, when i said i've never paid less than about 350, it's likely because i WILL NOT have a head rebuilt without REPLACING the 20 year old guides. This also lends to added costs.




Yes. you're right. I'm so sorry for mis-representing the cost of a stock head rebuild. And for not knowing Ross pistons were forged, It completely invalidates my entire post and I will go delete it promptly. Should I also sacrifice my first born to the speed gods to appease you?

Just chill out, there's no need to jump down my throat. A simple, "Hey, it's actually costs $x" Or, "Hey, Ross pistons are actually forged" would suffice.



Brian L.
91 Galant VR-4 #665/2000


Edited by Muskrat (12/09/10 12:41 PM)

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