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Clutch dragging after new ACT2600


yeti
Nope still sticky fingers


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1250126 posted 12/01/20 05:25 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Cheese and rice,

Looking for an explanation of why a longer slave rod bandaid is not a good fix, Iím using a stock resurfaced flywheel ( had step height checked by clutch shop )

New competition forged clutch fork & pivot ball ( not shimmed as the directions!)

Lightly used act 2600 not even broken in ( had inspected by clutch shop and they agreed itís not broken in ) @100 miles currently on my setup all city driving with light highway.

New OEM master cylinder FULLY EXTENDED

So the weird thing is the other day I adjusted the master because I noticed a grind going into reverse so I checked for drag by revving to 4500, the car inches forward.

When adjusting the master the first time I got to a point where I could no longer push the slave in by hand, so I proceeded to thread the rod in a 1/2 turn back in. I could then push the slave/clutch fork with my hand and locked the locknut on the master.

The other day I noticed a grind going into a gear so I removed launch limiter and revved to 6-7k the car inched forward again.

So I got down there and re adjusted but this time I backed the rod all the way to the last thread and I can still push the slave by hand.

What the fork.

Is there a leak in the system? Slave busted? Anyway to check?

My buddy said I need to thread the rod back in halfway but when I do that the clutch is literally 2-3Ē off the floor and has no engagement so I did that but put it back.

Currently the master rod is fully extended on the last thread, I can push slave in by hand

Could a SS clutch line really fix this problem? I have one waiting to install and will probably next chance I get but Iím almost sure itís not gonna fix my problem.

Iím thinking the slave is letting air in? How can I check if the slave is busted?

Any and all help is greatly appreciated as Its currently my only registered vehicle and is being used for DD





~turbohair~

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gvr4ever
Forever Member
347/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1250130 posted 12/02/20 04:55 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
SS line might keep you from grinding gears, but I never liked mine. Way too heavy and it seemed to max out the clutch system.

Could also double check your master and flush and bleed the whole system.



1992 Nile black w/sunroof
15xK miles. 2nd owner since 1998

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yeti
Nope still sticky fingers


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1250136 posted 12/02/20 05:09 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Ok so the slave cylinder has fluid all up in the inside under the rubber boot.

Really hoping thatís my problem.

Gonna order an extended slave rod with new OEm slave from extreme psi just in case.

After installing my new slave do I need to readjust the master cylinder rod?

Also how would I go about flushing the system?

Just open a bleeder and keep closing it while pumping in new fluid?



~turbohair~

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iceman69510 Galant VR4.org Moderator
Turn Right Racing
855/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1250138 posted 12/03/20 07:05 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
You may need to adjust the master rod again especially if you were not getting actual stroke from the slave.

You can start with a gravity bleed (may not always work), filling with fresh fluid and then opening the bleeder to let fluid flow down in the system. With a new slave you will likely need to actually manually bleed the air out when it has accumulated in the slave. Best as a two-person job unless you have a vacuum or pressure bleeder.



91 VR4 855 Nile Black
92 VR4 828 Belize Green-SOLD
91 VR4 115 Nile Black -SOLD

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turbowop
Hard Snarker
1051/2000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1250143 posted 12/03/20 11:34 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Which slave cylinder are you using? If it's not the one with the smaller diameter piston (red) you're gonna have issues. Pull back the boot, it should be anodized red. If it's green you need to change it out.



-Mark

A face only a grocery shopper could love.
1051

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yeti
Nope still sticky fingers


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1250183 posted 12/11/20 01:03 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Damn, so installed the new slave cylinder and SS clutch line, bled the shite out of it, depressed slave while foot was down, bleeder open, all that jazz.

Really hoping jacks transmission sent me a green rod slave, Iíll pull back boot tomorrow and check.

As of now clutch still dragging, not as much but enough to move the car at 6k.

But if I do infact have the pink slave ( thatís what I ordered)
So how about that extended slave cylinder rod? Should I try to pop that in?

I would need to adjust the clutch pedal after doing so correct, the master cylinder rod? Or I will overthrow the system?

I read the way to tell if your over throwing it is if your clutch grabs at the top instead of near the middle or near the floor



~turbohair~

Posts: 797 | From: san diego california | Member Since: 10/13/10 | IP: (2600:1700:5020:1) | Report this post to a Moderator

467
mass moment of inertia
467/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1250184 posted 12/11/20 12:08 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Slave cylinder extended length rod doesn't help much as that distance gets adjusted out during the setup process. You are losing clutch pressure plate lever stoke if everything else is correct. Incorrect flywheel step height, a worn pressure plate lever throw out pivot ball and excess wear (slop) in the clutch pedal arm at the point where the arm is attached to the rotating pivot shaft can also cause clutch disengagement issues. Check for pedal arm slop on high mileage cars, and cars with heavy duty cluches that cause high pedal effort, as it is a common point of wear.

If the slave cylinder is bled of the air properly, and is the correct diameter slave cylinder, if it was defective it would be leaking fluid as that is the only slave failure mode I know of that could cause your issue.


Edited by 467 (12/11/20 12:18 PM)

Posts: 915 | From: Fremont Ca | Member Since: 03/16/01 | IP: (73.222.214.55) | Report this post to a Moderator

yeti
Nope still sticky fingers


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1250185 posted 12/11/20 08:04 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Faquin shiet, so I guess Iíll start examining the master cylinder again.

So far all thatís done.

OEM master,
OEM slave
Resurfaced and step height checked flywheel.
New act 2600 PP & Sprung 6 puck ceramic.
2g SS clutch line. From master to slave.
New competition clutch fork and pivot ball
New TOB

Bled repetitively.

Pedal has no play, while holding master cylinder rod, if I begin to press pedal it moves immediately with no slop.

I red on TRE that if my master rod is adjusted all the way out itís my pedal for sure. They mention a method of lowering clutch then backing in master rod then pulling up on pedal.

No play there either, can double check but cheese and rice is that a bitch to do under the dash.

Whatís the best way to check pedal play? I think Iím solid.

Could using a power bleeder be worth a try? While bleeding nothing but clear fluid comes out after the bubbles with the first 4-5 pumps.


Alsoo Iím using synchromesh could that be why Iím grinding gears and it feel super notchy?

I remember on the first clutch before exploding bellhousing I used redline mt90 and it felt a lot smoother. I think lol.



~turbohair~

Posts: 797 | From: san diego california | Member Since: 10/13/10 | IP: (2600:1700:5020:1) | Report this post to a Moderator

yeti
Nope still sticky fingers


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1250186 posted 12/11/20 08:08 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting 467:

Slave cylinder extended length rod doesn't help much as that distance gets adjusted out during the setup process.
.




After re reading this 10 times, your saying what I think I comprehend.

After installing extended slave rod I have to adjust master cylinder rod so that the gain from lever stroke is minimal, but in fact itís there?

So itís possible to adjust the master to a sweet spot that utilizes the extended slave rod without over throwing PP into clutch disc? I mean Iím guessing I need like .5mm of extra throw.

Or am I better of using a 2g master cylinder rod? click



~turbohair~


Edited by yeti (12/11/20 08:28 PM)

Posts: 797 | From: san diego california | Member Since: 10/13/10 | IP: (2600:1700:5020:1) | Report this post to a Moderator

turbowop
Hard Snarker
1051/2000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1250191 posted 12/12/20 04:59 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I'm still waiting to hear what slave cylinder diameter you have. You need the one with the smaller red/pink piston. Have you confirmed that's what you have yet?



-Mark

A face only a grocery shopper could love.
1051

Posts: 11967 | From: Yakima, WA | Member Since: 04/29/01 | IP: (47.42.152.133) | Report this post to a Moderator

467
mass moment of inertia
467/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1250193 posted 12/12/20 09:39 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
No. I am saying that in actual use, with the proper clutch adjustment, the extended slave rod won't help at all, if it does it can mess up the throw out bearing and pressure plate. You are supposed to have a little free play in the pedal so the throw out bearing is not riding the pressure plate all the time. That is accomplished by the theaded adjustment between the pedal arm and the master as you show in the picture. So if you install the longer rod in the slave you should readjust the master adjustment rod to be shorter to get the freeplay back so the thowout bearing is not compressing the pressure plate when the clutch pedal is not compressed. The slave piston stroke has not changed in any way, so you really haven't gained any throw at the pressure plate and the clutch will still not disengage.

If you adjust to eliminate the freeplay, the extended rod will allow the master cylinder adjustment to heavily preload the pressure plate fingers by the throwout bearing. That will cause the pressure plate to possibly not have as much clamping force to the clutch initially, and it may actually allow the clutch to disengage. This is maladjusting the clutch and will possibly reduce the torque capacity of the clutch and pressure plate, while increasing dramatically the wear of the throwout bearing. So you might be able to get the clutch to disengage with the extended rod, but you cause other problems likely to bite you down the road. The extended rod just covers up the real problem by allowing a greater misadjustment of the clutch which will cause other issues.

From Road Race Engineering: click "If you are having problems with a clutch adjustment, don't be tempted to try to lengthen the clutch slave cylinder rod. It may work for a few symptoms (worn pedal assembly mostly) but it is not the right way to fix things. In order to take up additional free play, it puts constant pressure on the release bearing."

Quoting yeti:

Quoting 467:

Slave cylinder extended length rod doesn't help much as that distance gets adjusted out during the setup process.
.




After re reading this 10 times, your saying what I think I comprehend.

After installing extended slave rod I have to adjust master cylinder rod so that the gain from lever stroke is minimal, but in fact itís there?

So itís possible to adjust the master to a sweet spot that utilizes the extended slave rod without over throwing PP into clutch disc? I mean Iím guessing I need like .5mm of extra throw.

Or am I better of using a 2g master cylinder rod? click




Edited by 467 (12/12/20 09:58 PM)

Posts: 915 | From: Fremont Ca | Member Since: 03/16/01 | IP: (73.222.214.55) | Report this post to a Moderator

yeti
Nope still sticky fingers


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1250194 posted 12/13/20 07:09 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting turbowop:

I'm still waiting to hear what slave cylinder diameter you have. You need the one with the smaller red/pink piston. Have you confirmed that's what you have yet?




Just checked today and it looks pink, quite hard to see with all that grease in there.

Whatís the chances of this brand new OEm slave being faulty, kinda looked wet on the inside of the piston. Could of just been mad grease





~turbohair~

Posts: 797 | From: san diego california | Member Since: 10/13/10 | IP: (2600:1700:5020:1) | Report this post to a Moderator

yeti
Nope still sticky fingers


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1250195 posted 12/13/20 07:13 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Wow thanks for taking the time to explain that to me.

So Iím guessing that goes for the lengthened master cylinder rod as well.

What is the mechanics behind the reason the clutch is dragging?

Still baffled as to what to look for next.




Quoting 467:

No. I am saying that in actual use, with the proper clutch adjustment, the extended slave rod won't help at all, if it does it can mess up the throw out bearing and pressure plate. You are supposed to have a little free play in the pedal so the throw out bearing is not riding the pressure plate all the time. That is accomplished by the theaded adjustment between the pedal arm and the master as you show in the picture. So if you install the longer rod in the slave you should readjust the master adjustment rod to be shorter to get the freeplay back so the thowout bearing is not compressing the pressure plate when the clutch pedal is not compressed. The slave piston stroke has not changed in any way, so you really haven't gained any throw at the pressure plate and the clutch will still not disengage.

If you adjust to eliminate the freeplay, the extended rod will allow the master cylinder adjustment to heavily preload the pressure plate fingers by the throwout bearing. That will cause the pressure plate to possibly not have as much clamping force to the clutch initially, and it may actually allow the clutch to disengage. This is maladjusting the clutch and will possibly reduce the torque capacity of the clutch and pressure plate, while increasing dramatically the wear of the throwout bearing. So you might be able to get the clutch to disengage with the extended rod, but you cause other problems likely to bite you down the road. The extended rod just covers up the real problem by allowing a greater misadjustment of the clutch which will cause other issues.

From Road Race Engineering: click "If you are having problems with a clutch adjustment, don't be tempted to try to lengthen the clutch slave cylinder rod. It may work for a few symptoms (worn pedal assembly mostly) but it is not the right way to fix things. In order to take up additional free play, it puts constant pressure on the release bearing."

Quoting yeti:

Quoting 467:

Slave cylinder extended length rod doesn't help much as that distance gets adjusted out during the setup process.
.




After re reading this 10 times, your saying what I think I comprehend.

After installing extended slave rod I have to adjust master cylinder rod so that the gain from lever stroke is minimal, but in fact itís there?

So itís possible to adjust the master to a sweet spot that utilizes the extended slave rod without over throwing PP into clutch disc? I mean Iím guessing I need like .5mm of extra throw.

Or am I better of using a 2g master cylinder rod? click








~turbohair~

Posts: 797 | From: san diego california | Member Since: 10/13/10 | IP: (2600:1700:5020:1) | Report this post to a Moderator

467
mass moment of inertia
467/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1250196 posted 12/13/20 08:56 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Did you check the clutch fork position with the picture and description from RRE? click Does the clutch start to engage more and more if you depress the clutch fully for an extended time which would indicate a leaky master cylinder? If all that is OK, adjustment is correct, slave is bled, and pedal arm is not loose on pivot shaft I don't know what else would cause your issue.

Posts: 915 | From: Fremont Ca | Member Since: 03/16/01 | IP: (73.222.214.55) | Report this post to a Moderator

yeti
Nope still sticky fingers


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1250197 posted 12/13/20 11:12 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Hereís a pic before I changed the slave cylinder, Iíd imagine itís in the same place now.

Ya really bummed.

Is there a way to test what your asking? Like pump the pedal 5-10 times then hold down and check if drags?

Using a brand new OEm master cylinder btw.

The rod is adjusted fully all the way out and I can still push slave in by hand, would using a longer master cylinder rod adjusted out until I canít push slave in work?

Or is that the same idea as the extended slave rod.




~turbohair~

Posts: 797 | From: san diego california | Member Since: 10/13/10 | IP: (2600:1700:5020:1) | Report this post to a Moderator

467
mass moment of inertia
467/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1250198 posted 12/14/20 04:16 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
OK, a few things.

One, it looks like your fork may be starting out slightly too far to the left of center of the opening in the picture, it's close. It is hard to see from the picture, but I am going off the centerline of the flange around the opening and not the boot as the boot may not be centered in the opening. Check to make sure your clutch pedal can be pressed all the way to the floor without it appearing to stick on something before it hits the floor. See click @ 8:50 and click for more explanation.

Two, you can simply depress the clutch pedal to the floor for a long time with the engine running and emergency brake on to see if the clutch starts to drag with increasing time if there is a problem with the clutch master.

Three, I told you the wrong way to adjust the master clevis rod for maximum throw. Sorry, I wasn't aware of the self adjusting feature. See Jack's transmission video click for explanation of master clevis rod adjustment procedure.

Four, I also forgot there is a stop adjustment at the top of the clutch arm that you may be able to adjust to give you some more pedal throw. See Jack's transmission video click @5:40 for explanation.

Five, you shouldn't need an extended master clevis rod for adjustment. I would look for something else that is the problem like excessive wear in the clutch linkages under the dash, worn elongated holes in the pivots all take away from clutch travel. I've seen bunched up carpet under the clutch pedal restrict travel, but that is extreme because clutch disengagement shouldn't occur that close to the floor.

Edit: I would check they gave you the correct master while I was at it. You never know.


Edited by 467 (12/14/20 04:54 AM)

Posts: 915 | From: Fremont Ca | Member Since: 03/16/01 | IP: (73.222.214.55) | Report this post to a Moderator

yeti
Nope still sticky fingers


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1250200 posted 12/14/20 06:34 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Ok so pedal height is adjusted to the Max that still pushes switch,

Iíve adjusted the rod all the way to the last threads and I can still push the slave in by hand, thatís the weird thing, in jacks video you get to a point where you close off the valve in the slave and can no longer push it in by hand.

I canít get to that point in my master as I run out of thread.

Nothing that I can see looks worn in the linkage but I donít really know what Iím looking for to be honest. Iíve followed the links but the test say my pedal is good.

Iíll try the test your mentioning tomorrow, I drove up my driveway ( extremely steep ) and it didnít want to come out of 1st after getting to the top, I pushed down on the pedal as hard as I could but didnít change anything. I just applied slight pressure and it popped out ( as Iím typing this Iím sure thatís a bad thing to do and wonít be doing it anymore, I could of alternatively turned off the car.)

Is that essentially the same test, foot down for while and the car is locked in gear now? How would I go about testing the master cylinder? Itís brand new oem.



~turbohair~


Edited by yeti (12/14/20 06:36 AM)

Posts: 797 | From: san diego california | Member Since: 10/13/10 | IP: (2607:fb90:6621:c) | Report this post to a Moderator

467
mass moment of inertia
467/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1250201 posted 12/14/20 07:32 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
TMZ reports MB012660 (GVR4) clutch master NLA click The OEM part when it was available was quite a bit more expensive than aftermarket.

GSX_TC's Galant VR4 Build Thread has OEM MB012660 picture with 5/8 (piston size in.) cast into pass side of cylinder. click Piston size is the major issue, but I suppose an aftermarket could skimp in the length of the clevis or rod. Compare to old part if possible?

When your car popped out of gear in the driveway, it isn't the same test as what I described, but it shows your clutch is dragging a lot. Is it getting worse?

Testing the clutch pedal linkages under dash, grab hold of various components and push/pull back and forth in direction of actuation looking for looseness.

From transparentdsm: click
"push the clutch down with your foot all the way to the floor, get out of the car, grab the clutch pedal arm and pull it straight up. if it pulls up higher then it was then the pedal assembly is broken."


Edited by 467 (12/14/20 08:28 AM)

Posts: 915 | From: Fremont Ca | Member Since: 03/16/01 | IP: (73.222.214.55) | Report this post to a Moderator

yeti
Nope still sticky fingers


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1250236 posted 12/22/20 04:12 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I checked the slave as I put it in for proper casting marks.

Iíve done the test but itís solid as a rock when i let go, am I supposed to lower the clutch switch so the switch isnít stopping it?

I wouldnít say itís getting worse, Iím daily driving the car right now.

I guess Iíll try an extended master cylinder rod



~turbohair~

Posts: 797 | From: san diego california | Member Since: 10/13/10 | IP: (2600:1700:5020:1) | Report this post to a Moderator

yeti
Nope still sticky fingers


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1250839 posted 05/29/21 05:57 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Ok so my slave cylinder piston is yellow not pink or green. I ordered OEm from extreme psi?

Wtf

From using the extended slave rod, I caused my clutch to start slipping under heavy decel the other day.

So I swapped the original back in, not I literally canít get it into gear unless I fight the shit out of it.

Trans is leaking as well, it may have emptied itself gonna check that now



~turbohair~

Posts: 797 | From: san diego california | Member Since: 10/13/10 | IP: (2600:1700:5020:1) | Report this post to a Moderator

yubh8tn
Member
1384/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1250840 posted 05/29/21 07:19 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I had a somewhat similar problem recently except it DID get worse. I decided to bleed it again for the 3rd time, except this time, when my buddy pressed the clutch pedal in, I noticed the whole trans moved just a little. There's a bolt that goes through the trans into the block right next to the slave and that puppy was hand-tight. I torqued it to spec and now it shifts great as the slave isn't moving the entire transmission... lol

check it and see if its loose or missing?



Belize Green 1384/2000
1998 Integra


Edited by yubh8tn (05/29/21 07:21 PM)

Posts: 134 | From: coeur d alene, idaho | Member Since: 08/21/19 | IP: (98.146.240.111) | Report this post to a Moderator

yeti
Nope still sticky fingers


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1250892 posted 06/07/21 05:51 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
Your a life saver, Iíve been bleeding by myself with a wood block.

Had my gf step on the clutch and noticed a giant crack pushing the tranny away with each thrust of the slave cylinder.

Cheese and rice



~turbohair~

Posts: 797 | From: san diego california | Member Since: 10/13/10 | IP: (2600:1700:5020:1) | Report this post to a Moderator


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