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Re: 3kGT vs. Camaro Calipers


PastaRocket
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 469262 posted 04/25/07 08:08 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

Now thats how to be helpful.




Whatever has to be done to get you out of this thread that you have nothing constructive to add to.


Edited by 1778 (04/25/07 08:09 AM)

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Rausch Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 469280 posted 04/25/07 09:02 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
sorry to jack the thread. just had to fill the boy in.
Quote:

Whats the deez nuts reference to?


you must be younger. i'll fill you in.

you know who was asking about you the other day?

























DEEZ NUTS!!! almost old school reference.



Rance lives here...
Founder of Sold out to BMW Cru, then sold out there too.



Edited by VRausch4 (04/25/07 09:03 AM)

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PastaRocket
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 469285 posted 04/25/07 09:11 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
^^Bwahaha hahah. Exactly!! I thought that was too funny to ignore.

Clog away with fun, just not with redundant questions.


Edited by 1778 (04/25/07 09:13 AM)

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Rausch Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 469286 posted 04/25/07 09:12 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
no worries, i got you covered....ghetto FTW!



Rance lives here...
Founder of Sold out to BMW Cru, then sold out there too.


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moonvan
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 469739 posted 04/25/07 10:12 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      

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PastaRocket
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 470018 posted 04/26/07 12:25 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

What's the piston size of 3kgt calipers ?



I ordered a set in to measure, believe it or not I get two different measurments for the front and rear pistons in the caliper. I get 30.76mm for the front piston and 29.52mm for the rear piston. I've never seen 4pots with variant size caliper pistons, WTF??


Edited by 1778 (04/26/07 12:26 PM)

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Rausch Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 470023 posted 04/26/07 12:36 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
^^ thats actually not all that uncommon. i can't remember wher i last saw that, but it is not unheard of. so no worries there. usually you'll see that on higher end model brakes more than anywhere else...thats a good thing.



Rance lives here...
Founder of Sold out to BMW Cru, then sold out there too.


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CP
Still lingering, kinda like a chili and beer fart


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 470031 posted 04/26/07 12:49 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Snoop's a tool imo..."yo, yo, did whathis name get out to ya today? Who? DEEZNUTZ!" On a related note, I learned last night that Dre and Warren G are half brothers. I did not know that...



-Cy
Resident Spec Miata Racer | '93 Audi UrS4 | '04 Ram CTD | #1788/2000: SOLD

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JB
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 470038 posted 04/26/07 01:05 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
She said, "Daddy, if i have some nuts, on my chest, would those be chest nuts?"
I said, "Hell yeah..."
She said, "Daddy, if i have some nuts, on my chiyan, would those be chin nuts?"
I said, "Hell no bitch, you'd have a mutha fuckin dick in yo mouf..."



JBiz

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 470060 posted 04/26/07 01:54 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

Snoop's a tool imo..."yo, yo, did whathis name get out to ya today? Who? DEEZNUTZ!" On a related note, I learned last night that Dre and Warren G are half brothers. I did not know that...




Watching Clebrity Fit Club I see.

Warren G is who gave Dr. Dre Snoop Dogs demo tape. Warren G, Nate Dog, and Snoop had a group in highschool called 213.

Little gangster rap knowledge from my highschool days.



Michael
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Rausch Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 470064 posted 04/26/07 01:57 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
and here i thought that was all common knowledge....i guess i'm still a bit ghetto...



Rance lives here...
Founder of Sold out to BMW Cru, then sold out there too.


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skivittlerjimb
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 470083 posted 04/26/07 02:47 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Wow, this started out as a useful thread. Now...

Anyhow, back on topic... I've got my Camaro calipers and I'm looking to rebuild them before I install them. GM lists a piston seal and slide pin boot kit for ~$20 per side. Anything else I'm going to want to have before I rebuild and paint these things?

-Jim B.
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DarkDevilMMM
if I want a potential headache, I rather just get another GVR4
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 470091 posted 04/26/07 03:07 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
ok, this got me thinking, why are we keep using camero/vette or 3kgt caliper? is it because we are keeping the cost down? coz why not going straight to AP or brembo? or maybe even using EVO/STI?



huh?

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V8EATER
still thinking pink


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 470094 posted 04/26/07 03:10 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I think it's to keep the cost down. even a used set of Brembos or AP brakes are several hundred just for the calipers, or more. These calipers can be had for under a $100 all day long for the pair.



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WesS
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 470131 posted 04/26/07 04:17 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
The questions to this thread is which is more readily available?
and 2 which is easier to put on? ie. who makes the brackets/adapters for both?
Coming from driving a 2000 camaro z-28 I can tell you the brake options (as far as pads and rotors) seem endless for the camaro/corvette setups.





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Luke
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 471376 posted 04/29/07 10:56 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
The reason for the piston size difference is to prevent pad taper.

Those 3kgt piston sizes are very interesting indeed.
They seem to be much smaller than those of stock galant caliper.

Area wise, they are 56% of the stock caliper piston area.

This means, 3kgt conversion will cause the brake bias to shift significantly to the rear.
Specifically, it will change the front-to-rear brake bias by a factor of 0.61.
( 56% * 12.36 / 10.8 = 0.61 )

IMO, this will cause the car to be unstable as the rear tires will lock up way earlier than the mitsu engineers intended.
Ideally, you'd want the brake bias to shift just slightly to the rear compared to stock.

Here's a chart comparing stopping distance versus brake bias:

http://www.stoptech.com/products/BBK/balance.shtml
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_brakebiasandperformance.shtml

Someone correct me if my calculation above is incorrect though..

Quote:

Quote:

What's the piston size of 3kgt calipers ?



I ordered a set in to measure, believe it or not I get two different measurments for the front and rear pistons in the caliper. I get 30.76mm for the front piston and 29.52mm for the rear piston. I've never seen 4pots with variant size caliper pistons, WTF??




Edited by Luke (04/29/07 11:49 PM)

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Luke
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 471384 posted 04/29/07 11:26 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Ugh.. never mind my previous post..

The piston sizes information from which I based my calculation is incorrect.

According to http://www.stealth316.com/2-brakeupgrade.htm
the 3kgt piston size is 40.4 and 42.8 mm

Redoing the calculation, 3kgt conversion will move the brake bias to front .
Specifically, front-to-rear brake bias will increase by 16%.

IMO, stock setup is usually already more front-biased than optimal ( shortest stopping distance ) because the lawyer/engineer never want unstable rear lockup to occur.
Thus, I believe increasing front-to-rear brake bias even further than stock will actually increase stopping distance.


Edited by Luke (04/30/07 07:00 AM)

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Luke
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 471389 posted 04/29/07 11:37 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Okay, I went ahead and calculated the front-to-rear brake bias change for all three setup:


  • 3kgt caliper + 12.35" rotor +16%
  • camaro caliper + 13" mustang cobra rotor +44%
  • corvette caliper + 13" mustang cobra rotor +2.7%



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Robb
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 471411 posted 04/30/07 12:54 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Ok, so what if you did a rear caliper replacement on the GVR4 from a 3KGT. Or, mesured everything out and found out if they are the same for our cars. If they are the same as a GVR4, than why couldn't you just replace the GVR4 master cylinder with a 3KGT? And just to really make it more complicated, can you put 3 turbos on our cars?

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bazeng
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 471436 posted 04/30/07 05:34 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
wow!
interesting stuff!!!

i totally agree with the camaro bias going to the front...

can this be fixed with an adjustable bias valve?



Australia's Slowest VR4

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Hans91VR4
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 471472 posted 04/30/07 08:18 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

Ok, so what if you did a rear caliper replacement on the GVR4 from a 3KGT. Or, mesured everything out and found out if they are the same for our cars. If they are the same as a GVR4, than why couldn't you just replace the GVR4 master cylinder with a 3KGT? And just to really make it more complicated, can you put 3 turbos on our cars?




You would lose your ebrake setup if you switched to a 3000GT rear brake caliper. They use drum style rear brake calipers.

3 turbos would be useless... 4 are much more efficient.

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skivittlerjimb
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 471487 posted 04/30/07 08:54 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

i totally agree with the camaro bias going to the front...
can this be fixed with an adjustable bias valve?




Hmmmm, I'm thinking I'll hold off on installing these Camaro calipers until I can find a C5 Vette set. Oh well. Good to know now rather than locking up the fronts at high speeds. 44% is a huge brake bias change. The rears don't do a ton of stopping work now, but at that point they'd pretty much just be along for the ride. It would also make trail braking much more difficult, I would think (not that I'm an expert on trail braking, by any means).

There are plenty of adjustable brake bias valve kits out there, but I'm not sure just how much they could really compensate for this big a change, and it would be a bit of a "Band Aid" fix IMO. Also, my car has ABS deleted, but for folks that still have ABS, I'm not sure if a bias valve would be compatible or not.

-Jim B.
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1432/2000

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PastaRocket
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 471495 posted 04/30/07 09:06 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

The piston sizes information from which I based my calculation is incorrect.

According to http://www.stealth316.com/2-brakeupgrade.htm
the 3kgt piston size is 40.4 and 42.8 mm





I dont think that is accurate, I'll post pics tonight with the micrometer right on the pistons. I'm sure Hans has got a set of early 90s VR4/TT calipers around, maybe he can check too.


Edited by 1778 (04/30/07 09:40 AM)

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Luke
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 471556 posted 04/30/07 11:07 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Hi Jim:

To make matter more complicated.. even though I am using C5 brake calipers, I am still using the Camaro caliper brackets. The adapter than Ron makes is designed for the Camaro caliper bracket. ( which is non interchangeable with the C5 caliper bracket )

So, basically, you need parts from both camaro and caliper brake setup.
Picture of parts

The good news is that C5 vette calipers can be had for very cheap from www.corvetteforum.com. ( $50-$70 bucks )
The reason why they are so cheap is that many C5 owners upgrade to C5 Z06 calipers.
The only difference between Z06 and non-Z06 calipers is the color. ( Z06's is red )

Anyway, the C5 calipers will give you much much improved brake pedal feel.
The brake pedal is very very firm. ( it is simple physics due to the smaller pistons )
I have driven Audi S4 with stoptech brake upgrade, and the pedal feel is the same.

IMO, it is still a very cost-effective upgrade. We are lucky that the C5 calipers happens to have just the correct piston size to pretty much retain the stock brake balance.

Quote:

Hmmmm, I'm thinking I'll hold off on installing these Camaro calipers until I can find a C5 Vette set.






2.3L 6-bolt, BJ's ported 2G head, TRE tranny, GT3076R, 255lph, 850cc, AFPR, ROM emulator, Aquamist, ETS FMIC, LSD rr Quaife ft diff, WL swaybars, Bilstein, HKS 264/272 cams, ZT2 WBO2


Edited by Luke (04/30/07 12:11 PM)

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skivittlerjimb
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 471563 posted 04/30/07 11:18 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
Cool, thanks for doing the research and posting the numbers, Luke. The plain jane Camaro/Firebird caliper upgrade may still make sense for a lot of folks, as long as they're willing to accept earlier front lock up and likely faster front pad wear. I'll search around for some C5 calipers. I'm assuming the C5 and Camaro/Firebirds use the same brake pads, yes? What are you going to run for pads?

-Jim B.
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