GalantVR4.org The Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 Forum
Galant VR-4 Forums » Galant VR-4 » Technical Discussions » Re: Crankwalk?
Previous thread Next thread

Re: Crankwalk?


GSTwithPSI
A hole
820/1000
1837/2000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1211905 posted 07/09/15 09:47 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I doubt it was improper assembly, bad machining, contamination, or any of the above. The crank end play was clearly in spec in the picture shown, so unless it was checked improperly, there's no reason to believe the clearances were off. One side of the thrust looks way more trashed than the other (I'm assuming that's not the clutch side of the bearing), which would indicate to me the clutch was putting unnecessary pressure on the crank thrust. If that was the case, the crank thrust spent considerable amounts of time without lubrication, hence the one severely trashed thrust surface.

Think about it. The protective barrier of the oil film on the thrust surface was eliminated by something, and it wasn't equal on both sides. Pretty indicative of a clutch issue, which is typically the most common cause of crankwalk on a 6 bolt block.

Was the clutch adjusted properly? Did you check the slave to insure it returned when you pushed in the clutch fork/slave rod. Did you verify the relief port in the clutch master wasn't blocked? Is your clutch safety switch disabled? Do you hold the clutch pedal down at stop lights, or unnecessarily?



820/1000
1837/2000
1546/2000-SOLD
1813/2000-SOLD

Posts: 3436 | From: SoCal | Member Since: 01/02/12 | IP:
(72.45.2.251) | Report this post to a Moderator

Coltsfan
Member
631/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1211931 posted 07/10/15 10:33 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
No the clutch switch wasn't disabled, and yeah maybe I held it down more than I needed to. The clutch is adjusted right, but it wasn't killing the thrust surface prior to the rebuild. This was only 2000 miles in! And yeah, the opposite thrust surface still has a paint mark on it, indicating that it wasn't been worn at all.

I'm thinking maybe contamination, because I built my Colt engine at least seven years ago and never disabled the clutch switch on that one either. That engine has performed thousands of miles of summer DD duty, years of autocross, and literally hundreds of drag passes on at least four different clutch sets. The machine shop said they cleaned the block, but who knows. I should have done it myself.



92 Galant Vr4 631/1000 ---------DD well on it's way to having new everything...
90 AWD Colt Hatchback ----------Fun car
51 Buick Special ---------------Boring car

Posts: 200 | From: Tonawanda | Member Since: 05/04/14 | IP: (76.180.2.9) | Report this post to a Moderator

Launch
Member +
634/1000
395/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1211951 posted 07/10/15 01:46 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
The uneven wear on the thrust surfaces doesnt lead me to beleive it was foreign debris. Something was pushing that crank, be it drivetrain or block related
Here's my mess this past month. A slight rattle when started snowballed into a complete longblock "inspection"

but even then I had the crank sorted out before it went back in, i couldn't trust it still being stock with new bearings

Posts: 350 | From: Texas | Member Since: 08/17/06 | IP: (166.137.126.112) | Report this post to a Moderator

GSTwithPSI
A hole
820/1000
1837/2000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1211960 posted 07/10/15 03:18 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
^ I agree. If it were a dirty build, I think you'd see more evidence in the rod and main bearing surfaces. The pictures you posted looked pretty good to me.

Bottom line, something trashed the loaded side of the thrust bearing only. There's only a few things that can do that; the clutch being the most likely culprit. There are a million factors that could have made your current scenario different than your Colt, and even the last shortblock configuration that was in the car.

Can you verify your oil pressure at idle was adequate?

Sorry, dude. This really sucks. I was really impressed when you posted good results after investing so little in this build. Is the crank damaged at all?



820/1000
1837/2000
1546/2000-SOLD
1813/2000-SOLD

Posts: 3436 | From: SoCal | Member Since: 01/02/12 | IP:
(72.45.2.251) | Report this post to a Moderator

Coltsfan
Member
631/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1211962 posted 07/10/15 03:38 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Yeah the crank is pretty groovy on the thrust surface. The pressure plate and clutch are the same that came with the car (solid disk, yellow plate)act maybe. It feels normal/average to me, other than engaging half an inch from the floor, but it's always done that too. The pedal effort isn't much harder than the Clutchmasters FX700 that's currently in my Colt. The slave pushes back freely, so I don't know what to think.

All I can come up with is to clean it out, put the crank that came with the car back in, and replace the rod and main bearings again. I don't have an oil pressure gauge, but the oil light never came on until the other day when I pushed the clutch, and the oil pump showed zero signs of wear when I put it together. The crank that came with the car has zero damage to the thrust area by the way. One change I made to the clutch was replacing the stock flywheel with an ACT streetlite, but I can't see how that could be the problem.



92 Galant Vr4 631/1000 ---------DD well on it's way to having new everything...
90 AWD Colt Hatchback ----------Fun car
51 Buick Special ---------------Boring car

Posts: 200 | From: Tonawanda | Member Since: 05/04/14 | IP: (76.180.2.9) | Report this post to a Moderator

GSTwithPSI
A hole
820/1000
1837/2000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1211964 posted 07/10/15 04:26 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
How did you prime the engine? Maybe try the T00ners method: click

It's cheap insurance.

Also, trying to wrap my head around how the oil pressure light came on. If the car was full of oil, that's pretty hard to do. I suppose as the crank journals move in the main bearing saddles, the oil channels in the bearings and the oil holes in the crank get misaligned? I guess this could temporarily cut oil flow and starve the pump. But damn, that's A LOT of movement. Did the oil light only come on when you depressed the clutch pedal?

At this point, what do you really have to lose by cleaning it out and swapping in a new set of bearings? I'd say go for it. It's going to be a pain with the motor in the car, though.

Posts: 3436 | From: SoCal | Member Since: 01/02/12 | IP: (72.45.2.251) | Report this post to a Moderator

Coltsfan
Member
631/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1211970 posted 07/10/15 05:48 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Yeah the engine is coming out at this point. It did have a lot of movement, and depressing the clutch was creating enough drag to slow the idle down to 400-500, and even stall it. The light only came on when it was hot, idling, and as I held the clutch down. After it cooled for an hour the light didn't come on pressing the clutch, and as I drove it home, I kept the RPM from dropping low enough to trigger the light. Aside from the couple times I stalled it coasting up to a light, the light stayed off the whole ride home. I wonder if it trashed a balance shaft bearing and lost pressure to the center main. The balance shafts didn't spin as freely as one would hope after the machine shop pressed the new bearings in, but after priming it for a while, they both moved freely enough to mostly drop to the lowest point of the rotation on their own.

The priming was done with a half inch drill motor and a 14mm socket just before I put the timing belt on.



92 Galant Vr4 631/1000 ---------DD well on it's way to having new everything...
90 AWD Colt Hatchback ----------Fun car
51 Buick Special ---------------Boring car

Posts: 200 | From: Tonawanda | Member Since: 05/04/14 | IP: (76.180.2.9) | Report this post to a Moderator

iceman69510 Galant VR4.org Moderator
Turn Right Racing
855/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1211993 posted 07/10/15 10:23 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting GSTwithPSI:

I suppose as the crank journals move in the main bearing saddles, the oil channels in the bearings and the oil holes in the crank get misaligned? I guess this could temporarily cut oil flow and starve the pump.




Not sure I follow your thinking here. Pump supply is from the pan and long before the crank feed. Are you thinking blockage was causing lack of RETURN flow to the pan so the pump starved that way?



91 VR4 855 Nile Black
92 VR4 828 Belize Green-SOLD
91 VR4 115 Nile Black -SOLD

Posts: 10841 | From: Michigan | Member Since: 03/05/01 | IP: (2602:304:ccc7:35) | Report this post to a Moderator

GSTwithPSI
A hole
820/1000
1837/2000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1211998 posted 07/10/15 10:47 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
^For starving the pump, yes. But, I'd think there would still be enough oil in the pan to cover the sump, which is why I don't completely understand it if the oil level wasn't low.

I was also referring to the journals themselves being starved if the crank oil passages and bearing channels became severely misaligned. Again, I'd assume the crank would have to move a good bit before that could happen.



820/1000
1837/2000
1546/2000-SOLD
1813/2000-SOLD

Posts: 3436 | From: SoCal | Member Since: 01/02/12 | IP:
(72.45.2.251) | Report this post to a Moderator

prove_it
my racist jokes aren't actually funny
715/1000
1284/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1212024 posted 07/11/15 08:51 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
If the pump starved, then the 1 and 2 rod bearings would be toast. This I know. Been there done that.



#1284/2K NB, Totaled
#715/1K KG, Rebuilding
02 Acura TL daily duty unit

12yr+ Vr4 owner.
Honda/Acura master tech.
Family Guy

Posts: 4201 | From: Sioux Falls, SD | Member Since: 07/04/08 | IP: (24.230.93.110) | Report this post to a Moderator

GSTwithPSI
A hole
820/1000
1837/2000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1212025 posted 07/11/15 08:56 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Yeah, I agree, Ryan. The bearings looked pretty good from the pics that were posted.

What else would cause low oil pressure in a car full of oil if the pump wasn't starved in one way or another though? Maybe it bound up somehow?



820/1000
1837/2000
1546/2000-SOLD
1813/2000-SOLD

Posts: 3436 | From: SoCal | Member Since: 01/02/12 | IP:
(72.45.2.251) | Report this post to a Moderator

prove_it
my racist jokes aren't actually funny
715/1000
1284/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1212027 posted 07/11/15 09:28 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Lack of assembly lube on the thrust surface. Took a while for it to wear, but initial start-up damaged it, then constant clutch use accelerated it.



#1284/2K NB, Totaled
#715/1K KG, Rebuilding
02 Acura TL daily duty unit

12yr+ Vr4 owner.
Honda/Acura master tech.
Family Guy

Posts: 4201 | From: Sioux Falls, SD | Member Since: 07/04/08 | IP: (24.230.93.110) | Report this post to a Moderator

swe_gvr4_1991
Member


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1212030 posted 07/11/15 10:27 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Was the balance shafts eliminated on this engine? If so how was the inner bearing surface oil hole blocked?



.. KiM H ..
Galant VR-4 1991. Gulf spec.
Author of Swede Density software - REAL speed density for 1G's and GVR4's - Videos

Posts: 177 | From: Sweden, Alingsås | Member Since: 07/27/06 | IP: (85.228.2.62) | Report this post to a Moderator

iceman69510 Galant VR4.org Moderator
Turn Right Racing
855/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1212061 posted 07/11/15 10:12 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting prove_it:

If the pump starved, then the 1 and 2 rod bearings would be toast. This I know. Been there done that.




Me too.



91 VR4 855 Nile Black
92 VR4 828 Belize Green-SOLD
91 VR4 115 Nile Black -SOLD

Posts: 10841 | From: Michigan | Member Since: 03/05/01 | IP: (76.204.115.93) | Report this post to a Moderator

Coltsfan
Member
631/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1212291 posted 07/14/15 01:48 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I got over my initial disgust and lack of motivation to do anything with this fine piece of machinery, and pulled the engine. The Balance shaft bearings and rod bearings seem to be undamaged. In fact the other four mains look decent as well besides a small scratch in one of them from a speck of debris in the oil.

Looking back, I think I know the cause of the failure. I forgot to tighten the banjo bolt on my fuel filter, so initial startup took a ton of cranking, followed by some sputtering, and a stall. I had already washed away all the assembly lube a day or two beforehand when I primed the engine for a solid 5-6 minutes. I heard the dripping fuel, and corrected the leak, but by then I may have already scuffed the thrust surface of the bearing. I ordered the $56 mains instead of the $32 mains this time, because they claim to have "Sealed Power's patented “Ramp and Flat™” Contoured Flange® design, a significant improvement in engine-bearing technology, doubles thrust-load capability, reduces wear dramatically and improves lubricity between the flange face and the thrust surface" and I ordered another set of Sealed Power rod bearings as well since I'm changing the crank.

I'll also be unplugging the clutch safety switch too since I am now a believer.



92 Galant Vr4 631/1000 ---------DD well on it's way to having new everything...
90 AWD Colt Hatchback ----------Fun car
51 Buick Special ---------------Boring car

Posts: 200 | From: Tonawanda | Member Since: 05/04/14 | IP: (76.180.2.9) | Report this post to a Moderator

prove_it
my racist jokes aren't actually funny
715/1000
1284/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1212295 posted 07/14/15 02:58 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
That sounds very logical. I get the point of priming the engine, but like in your case it actually hurt you. Be sure to really stare at the cranks thrust surface, it should be fine as the crank is harder that the bearing, but be sure.

Haven't heard much about the bearings you bought, will be nice to see how they work out.


How many times have the rod bolts and main cap bolts been torqued? Don't overlook those guys now that your doing it again.



#1284/2K NB, Totaled
#715/1K KG, Rebuilding
02 Acura TL daily duty unit

12yr+ Vr4 owner.
Honda/Acura master tech.
Family Guy

Posts: 4201 | From: Sioux Falls, SD | Member Since: 07/04/08 | IP: (24.230.93.110) | Report this post to a Moderator

Coltsfan
Member
631/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1212301 posted 07/14/15 04:16 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
The crank is scored and groovy. Crank number two is at the machine shop for a polish and clean. Probably worth the $86 in hindsight. Keeping my fingers crossed, because I only have one more spare 6 bolt crank laying around the shop after this one.

The bolts have been torqued a (guessing) minimum of 4 times in the past. Once when it was built, again when someone else was in there and removed the balance shafts (maybe), two more times when I plastigauged it and assembled it, and who knows besides that. I'm leaving the head on for this procedure, so not dealing with head bolts at least.

I've assembled a bunch of engines in the past, and this is the first one I know of that isn't still running to this day, so I'm feeling a little befuddled. This is the first time I ever skipped having the crank looked at by a machine shop, and inevitably polished, but it looked so good I assumed it wasn't that important. Perhaps I put a nick in one of the thrust surfaces and simply overlooked it.

The mottled look of the rod bearings has me wondering high spots on the crank, low oil pressure, too much linear movement of the crank, or what?

Ps. Sorry for the horrible photo quality.



92 Galant Vr4 631/1000 ---------DD well on it's way to having new everything...
90 AWD Colt Hatchback ----------Fun car
51 Buick Special ---------------Boring car


Edited by Coltsfan (07/14/15 04:18 PM)

Posts: 200 | From: Tonawanda | Member Since: 05/04/14 | IP: (76.180.2.9) | Report this post to a Moderator

prove_it
my racist jokes aren't actually funny
715/1000
1284/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1212319 posted 07/14/15 05:38 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Hard to see anything in that pic. I've rebuilt engines without having the crank polished before with no ill effects.

Also, I'd invest in new bolts. I don't think you wanna be kicking yourself for not doing it now.



#1284/2K NB, Totaled
#715/1K KG, Rebuilding
02 Acura TL daily duty unit

12yr+ Vr4 owner.
Honda/Acura master tech.
Family Guy

Posts: 4201 | From: Sioux Falls, SD | Member Since: 07/04/08 | IP: (24.230.93.110) | Report this post to a Moderator

Coltsfan
Member
631/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1212407 posted 07/15/15 01:43 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I'm going to take my chances with the bolts. Come to think of it, the rods were out of a virgin block, so the only one who has torqued those has been me and the factory.

Factory nitrided crank #2 polished and ready for action. Machinist said, "That is some hard material!"



92 Galant Vr4 631/1000 ---------DD well on it's way to having new everything...
90 AWD Colt Hatchback ----------Fun car
51 Buick Special ---------------Boring car

Posts: 200 | From: Tonawanda | Member Since: 05/04/14 | IP: (76.180.2.9) | Report this post to a Moderator

prove_it
my racist jokes aren't actually funny
715/1000
1284/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1212416 posted 07/15/15 03:26 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Do you REALLY want to take chances on bolts?



#1284/2K NB, Totaled
#715/1K KG, Rebuilding
02 Acura TL daily duty unit

12yr+ Vr4 owner.
Honda/Acura master tech.
Family Guy

Posts: 4201 | From: Sioux Falls, SD | Member Since: 07/04/08 | IP: (24.230.93.110) | Report this post to a Moderator

Coltsfan
Member
631/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1212425 posted 07/15/15 03:50 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Well how often are you supposed to replace them? I'm not building a monster.



92 Galant Vr4 631/1000 ---------DD well on it's way to having new everything...
90 AWD Colt Hatchback ----------Fun car
51 Buick Special ---------------Boring car

Posts: 200 | From: Tonawanda | Member Since: 05/04/14 | IP: (76.180.2.9) | Report this post to a Moderator

prove_it
my racist jokes aren't actually funny
715/1000
1284/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1212433 posted 07/15/15 05:46 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
No, but constant torque stretches the bolt/studs and weakens the torque holding ability.



#1284/2K NB, Totaled
#715/1K KG, Rebuilding
02 Acura TL daily duty unit

12yr+ Vr4 owner.
Honda/Acura master tech.
Family Guy

Posts: 4201 | From: Sioux Falls, SD | Member Since: 07/04/08 | IP: (24.230.93.110) | Report this post to a Moderator

iceman69510 Galant VR4.org Moderator
Turn Right Racing
855/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1212489 posted 07/16/15 09:48 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
None of the 6 bolt bolts are torque stretch bolts, but they can certainly stretch over time. I can't remember off-hand if there is a measurement spec in the manual for these parts. I personally would not be too concerned about the main bolts, but would want to check the rod bolts if there is a spec. This is not as crucial as in a 7 bolt engine.



91 VR4 855 Nile Black
92 VR4 828 Belize Green-SOLD
91 VR4 115 Nile Black -SOLD

Posts: 10841 | From: Michigan | Member Since: 03/05/01 | IP: (63.240.164.10) | Report this post to a Moderator

prove_it
my racist jokes aren't actually funny
715/1000
1284/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1212497 posted 07/16/15 10:15 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Rod bolts worry me more. How many times have you heard the phrase "spun a rod bearing". I've far more spun rod bearings than main bearings.



#1284/2K NB, Totaled
#715/1K KG, Rebuilding
02 Acura TL daily duty unit

12yr+ Vr4 owner.
Honda/Acura master tech.
Family Guy

Posts: 4201 | From: Sioux Falls, SD | Member Since: 07/04/08 | IP: (24.230.93.110) | Report this post to a Moderator

Coltsfan
Member
631/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1212592 posted 07/17/15 09:11 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
Well the rods were actually the original parts from the engine that's currently in my Colt, and I'm pretty sure they were only used once. A machine shop checked them and said they were good years ago, and they sat in a box ever since.

I have my lower gasket set, and new ball joints, and outer tie rods. Just waiting for all my main & rod bearings to show up Monday.



92 Galant Vr4 631/1000 ---------DD well on it's way to having new everything...
90 AWD Colt Hatchback ----------Fun car
51 Buick Special ---------------Boring car

Posts: 200 | From: Tonawanda | Member Since: 05/04/14 | IP: (76.180.21.67) | Report this post to a Moderator


Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4
Previous thread Next thread

Extra information
0 registered and 30 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Galant VR4.org Moderator:  curtis, steve, atc250r, jcgalntvr4-244, cheekychimp, jepherz, Rausch, toybreaker, iceman69510, pot, FlyingEagle 

Print Thread

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Thread views: 8075

Rate this thread


News & Events: News | Events
Galant VR-4: Newbies | General VR4 Discussions | Technical Discussions | How To and Info Archive
Marketplace: Parts For Sale | Cars For Sale | Good Guys | Bad Guys
Community: Members' Showcase

Contact Us | Privacy statement GalantVR-4.org

Generated in 0.105 seconds in which 0.049 seconds were spent on a total of 14 queries. Turbo powered.


Hertz's Galant VR-4 Page