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Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?


spoulson
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 19521 posted 10/23/03 09:37 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
quote:
Originally posted by GVR-4:
I'm pretty sure you're supposed to put the separator on the back side of the bearing. Will it not fit? I'm still waiting on my separator to be delivered so I can begin pressing the gears/bearings off the shafts. I don't think my parts from TRE will be here in less than another week, so I'm not really in a big hurry.

That's what I did and it took out the roller cage that you see on the right and all the rollers fall out. I've been suggested to use a cut-off tool to cut about 80% through the inner race and either chisel or hammer it off.

These are on the ends of the shaft where you can't put the separator under a gear. You have zero clearance.

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GVR-4
Creative Name Huh?
77/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 19522 posted 10/23/03 01:29 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
If that's the case, then a separator isn't gonna be much better than the puller I have. [Roll Eyes]

Can you get the separator on the small end lip or is too much of it broken off from the rollers?

Keep us posted on your progress, Shawn.

dp

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Luke
Senior Member
201/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 19523 posted 10/24/03 03:25 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
quote:
Originally posted by keydiver:
Yesss! FedEx just picked up my transmission, and its on its way to TRE. I'm getting the 4-spider diff too, the EVO forks, heavy duty synchros on 1,3,and 4, and the dual-sychro 2nd gear (of course). If there's any money left in the bank, I may get the higher 5th gear ratio. Anyone have any feedback on the 10% vs 25% change?

I got a TRE rebuilt tranny with 10% taller 5th.
More than likely you will also have to change the end cover to the updated version to get it to work.

However, I love the 10% taller gear. Crusing on highway at 75mph is a comfortable 3K rpm.
I wouldn't get the 25% taller gear, as the gear is straight cut. Therefore, it is going to whine.

I also got double synchro 1st and 2nd. steel shift rail, evo shift forks, new synchros in all gears. It shifts very nice indeed, especially after about 500-1K miles break-in period.

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iceman69510 Galant VR4.org Moderator
Turn Right Racing
855/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 19524 posted 10/24/03 05:26 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
quote:
Originally posted by spoulson:
quote:
Originally posted by GVR-4:
I'm pretty sure you're supposed to put the separator on the back side of the bearing. Will it not fit? I'm still waiting on my separator to be delivered so I can begin pressing the gears/bearings off the shafts. I don't think my parts from TRE will be here in less than another week, so I'm not really in a big hurry.

That's what I did and it took out the roller cage that you see on the right and all the rollers fall out. I've been suggested to use a cut-off tool to cut about 80% through the inner race and either chisel or hammer it off.

These are on the ends of the shaft where you can't put the separator under a gear. You have zero clearance.

Two things for you:

Jon at TRE actually uses an impact hammer chisel to push some of the bearings off ( and also to split the cages and roller off some of them first), second, the bearing separator is supposed to go into the zero clearance between the gear and the bearing as you tighten it down. It is a wedge to drive the two parts apart. At least that is how I believe it is supposed to work. I used a dealer tool (borrowed) for mine.

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turbogalant
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 19525 posted 10/24/03 08:36 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Hey you house looks like mine with tranny parts all over the place. Check you shift shaft seal to see if it shows signs of leakage. Replace it now if it does you have to pull the trans apart to get to it again. I know because mine it apart again because of that. Also while you in there replace all the seal some of them i.e. the input shaft seal is only accessable from inside the tranny. When you go to put it back together tighten down the case to press in the diff and when you go to tighten the pain in the ass 36mm nuts use you foot to hold it so you can torque it without put it on it's side and any left over trans fluid get on the rtv and it leaks [Roll Eyes] don't ask how I know. And there is a groove in the input shaft where the one ball is behind the viscous coupling if you put two in it will hold the shaft to the visous coupling much tighter and it makes it feel more like a welded center diff. The nice thing is if you don't like it you can put the side cover off and take it out. Also when you put on the 5/reverse syncro's make sure you have the flat spots in it on the side with the wave washer or else the will lock the trans because there inside diameter is differn't. When you look on the vfaq the one on top doesn't have the flat spots don't ask how I know this either [Roll Eyes] .

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spoulson
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 19526 posted 10/24/03 09:39 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
quote:
Originally posted by iceman69510:
second, the bearing separator is supposed to go into the zero clearance between the gear and the bearing as you tighten it down. It is a wedge to drive the two parts apart. At least that is how I believe it is supposed to work. I used a dealer tool (borrowed) for mine.

See, the problem is the cheap-o bearing separator I got from Harbor Freight is as soft as butter. Instead of getting underneath, it simply dents. I sharpen it with a dremel, same result when I try again. What I need is something made out of steel, not butter.

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GVR-4
Creative Name Huh?
77/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 19527 posted 10/25/03 09:14 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
What has everyone's experience been in dealing with Jon Ripple at TRE? My crap's taking longer than he said and I haven't heard fom him. He's machining the center diff and a new input shaft for double synchro 1st and 2nd, so it's not a complete tranny, just parts. Anyone?

dp

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spoulson
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 19528 posted 10/25/03 02:21 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I managed to get past the stuck roller bearing. Using a 3" pneumatic cut-off wheel I was able to make grooves on both sides so that the crappy bearing separator could grip it and they both finally came off.

Grooves


I hate you!


New parts from TRE


All for now.


Edited by spoulson (10/12/04 07:02 AM)

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Luke
Senior Member
201/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 19529 posted 10/25/03 05:29 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
quote:
Originally posted by GVR-4:
What has everyone's experience been in dealing with Jon Ripple at TRE? My crap's taking longer than he said and I haven't heard fom him. He's machining the center diff and a new input shaft for double synchro 1st and 2nd, so it's not a complete tranny, just parts. Anyone?

dp

I got my tranny rebuilt actually faster than his original quote.
He pretty much did the work for me in two days.
One day to take apart and let me know what went wrong.
Then, one more day to rebuild according to my choice of mods.

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Pivvay
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 19530 posted 10/25/03 09:26 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Mine took at very very very long time. He quoted me 2 weeks. I got it back 3.5 months later AND he messed up the output shaft. Plus I had to keep calling and calling him to get it done. And he didn't include my ported manifold. That being said a new t-case fixed the output shaft prob (John did reemburse me for it and the manifold) and the tranny is great. I will *never* send it back to him though.

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curtis Galant VR4.org Moderator
Space Blanket from NASA plumbed into the attic
475/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 19531 posted 10/25/03 10:27 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
the best way to pull the bearing that Ive found is a 2 x 12 pine board on the floor. Just hold the propane torch to the bearings to heat them up then start slamming the f&*( out of the shaft on the end. the wood will keep the threads from getting damaged. Just wear gloves the gears are hell on your hands. When it gets close to the end just hold a 1/2 inch deep well socket against the end and finish it by tapping it off.

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Mariner31
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 19532 posted 10/30/03 02:31 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Would a 10ton bearing press do the job too?

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Raggedy GVR-4
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 19533 posted 10/30/03 03:12 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
quote:
Originally posted by spoulson:
I managed to get past the stuck roller bearing. Using a 3" pneumatic cut-off wheel I was able to make grooves on both sides so that the crappy bearing separator could grip it and they both finally came off.

Grooves
 -

I hate you!
 -

New parts from TRE
 -

All for now.


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Raggedy GVR-4
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 19534 posted 10/30/03 03:33 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Sorry, I clicked to early on that last post.

I rebuild these all the time and for that input shaft bearing I use an air hammer with a thin blunt bit placing it between the gear teeth, at the same angle as the gear teeth and push it off catching the edge of the bearing until the bearing spreader can fit. Takes about 10 seconds and your done.

I use a long jawed puller along with a bearing spreader and a step plate set so you don't damage anything for dissasembly, no press needed...

I use a Walmart hot plate to install all bearings. They just drop on with a little heat but don't cook them just warm them, no press needed...

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spoulson
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 19535 posted 10/30/03 01:21 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
quote:
Originally posted by Mariner31:
Would a 10ton bearing press do the job too?

Probably, but more importantly you need the space to fit the shaft.

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GVR-4
Creative Name Huh?
77/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 19536 posted 10/31/03 10:02 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
All but two of my parts arrived today from TRE: an intermediate shaft bearing and the 1st/2nd gear shift rail. These two items were overlooked and will be shipped out Monday. Here's the list:

Four spider center diff, double synchro 1st and 2nd gears, input shaft, steel shift rails, shift forks w/bronze pads, 3rd/4th gear synchro ring, neodymium trash magnet, oil filter, magnetic drain plug, all needle bearings, all roller bearings, roll pins, snap rings, synchro springs, shaft end nuts, all seals, 10% taller 5th gear, and the nylon block for the shift linkage (which I don't need: I machined a brass one).

After $1,886.90, this thing better shift like buttah and NEVER need another rebuild. At least as long as I own it.

Here's a photo:

 -

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spoulson
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 19537 posted 11/07/03 11:06 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I spent some more time tonight on the thing. I got the shafts completely rebuilt and ready for assembly.

Now I'm stuck on two things. Maybe someone has some tips to help me along.

I'm removing the old seals: front diff left/right, input shaft, and rear output shaft. the rear output shaft just fell apart and that's a problem because it's a U-shaped seal that wedges into position in the bell housing. I scraped and scraped, and there's still rubber stuck in the groove that won't come out. Tried a torch too, but that made no immediate progress and I was afraid it might just make things worse.

Also, I can't get the input/intermediate shaft bearing races out of the bell housing side of the case. I also tried torching around the outside of the race and pryed with a screwdriver on the intermediate one, but no budge. The input shaft is harder, because there's no place to pry at. Should I just bake the whole thing and hope they'll pop out? The races on the other side weren't much of a problem. And before you say, I can't reuse the races because seems that I'm using slightly different bearing sizes that aren't compatible with old races.

btw, I found this truck parts place that'll do hot tanking, solvent bath, and whatever else. They have a machine shop in the back with all the stuff. Tomorrow I'm going to see what they can do for my ugly trans case.

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GVR-4
Creative Name Huh?
77/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 19538 posted 11/11/03 05:45 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Shawn-

I'm not sure what you mean on the output shaft seal. Mine just presses in from outside the case and it's one piece. Maybe you could elaborate or take a photo of what you're talking about.

As for the input shaft race, I just got mine out last night. It was tough. I have two pretty nice Proto gear pullers and I used the legs from the bigger one to get behind the race and "lift" it out. I can send you the pieces of the puller I used if you need them, or at least post photos of what I'm talking about. It's been a while since your post (sorry, I must've missed it) so you've probably got everything worked out by now.

What I lack now is an input shaft C-clip, an output shaft seal, a 1/2 upgraded shift rail (from Jon at TRE, who won't return my e-mails!), and some spacers. After I get all that, I should be golden!


Edit: I'd also limit the amount of heat you put on that aluminum case. Just my $ .02.

dp

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spoulson
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 19539 posted 11/11/03 09:55 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Ok, so you press in the output shaft seal. Now when you want to remove a 12 y/o seal, how do you 'un-press' it? It just falls apart and rubber is now wedged into the O ridge where the seal goes. You can't press a new one in because of the rubber that's stuck in there. Got me now?

As for the races, I'm going to give the case pieces to a local guy who I found has a hot tank. Hopefully the races will fall out for me, which can save me some frustration. If not, I got a couple ideas. Nate Pharr suggested for the input shaft race to use a small pry bar or something under the race, then use a 1/2" extension in the input shaft tunnel and bang the extension against the pry bar with a hammer, moving the pry bar around as necessary.

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spoulson
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 19540 posted 05/07/04 07:42 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
A quick update for the records. I finished the trans and got it back in the car a few weeks ago.

Initially, it drove well but shifted extremely tight. I often had to row the shifter back/forth in different gears to get 1st to go in. Reverse required me to disengage the clutch slowly to go in. 3rd had a minor grind/crunch going in at or above synchronized engagement rpms. I later determined this is because I must have mistakenly overshimmed the shafts, causing them to not move freely to allow easy movement.

My solution was to readjust the shims. But, I really didn't feel like pulling the trans again. I ended up doing the job with the trans on the car. It was not very difficult doing it this way at all.

After reassembly and a little time for the axle sealant to cure, I refilled the oil and gave it a test drive. MUCH better. Now it drives like stock.

Lessons learned:
  • It is possible to rebuild the trans while on the car. I would not recommend this the first time doing trans work, as you can't study it like you would on a workbench.
  • When doing the on-car trans tear down, removing roll pins from shift rails can be difficult with not much room. I found that a few nails I had laying around fit the diameter perfectly if I cut them shorter and used a regular hammer to drive the pin out.
  • I really need a small gear puller that can pull off the 5th gear from the shaft by the ledge around the top of it. Doing it with prybars just chips the edges of the teeth.
  • Putting oil in the transmission and transfer case can be difficult and messy without the right tools. I came across an inexpensive Mityvac Fluid transfer pump at Pep Boys. One tube in the bottle and the other in the fill hole, then you pump it without getting any junk on you in the process.
  • When installing the oil filter screen, I was initially stumped as to how to install. There is an obvious location on the case with little dowels sticking out. Put the filter there and hammer the dowels flat.
  • If you don't use them already, cardboard boxes are you friend when working under your car.
  • My garage still smells like gear oil.

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GVR-4
Creative Name Huh?
77/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 19541 posted 05/07/04 01:12 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Nice. Mine's been done for a few months too. I am having the same problem you described: tight 1st and 2nd and slight grinding in 2nd and 3rd. I guess I need to set the bearing preload lower. The spec for the solder crush test gives you a range of +/- .005" if I remember correctly. I tried to set it right in the middle. Now it seems I should have set it a bit on the loose side. I think I'll try re-torquing the case bolts 1-2 ft. lbs. less than spec before I tear into it again. I was hoping for better shifting than this. Thanks for the tips, Shawn.

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spoulson
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 19542 posted 05/07/04 01:44 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I'm not convinced case bolt torque is a major factor of preload. I always reassembled with a torque wrench in a star pattern in stages until all are ~25lb/ft.

As for loose shimming, don't go too loose. It may seem ok, but whatever that limit is, you don't want to allow for too much lateral movement in the shafts. This may break shift forks, which are fixed in position and cannot move much with the shaft.

It seems to me that shimming is a practice that needs to be perfected over time. My shims were measured out to be larger than the biggest you can buy. So, I got two equal-size shims to total the size I needed for the input/intermediate shafts. So when I realized it had to be too tight, I removed one of those shims from input/intermediate each, thereby halving the shim size. I am probably a little too loose and I will have to re-measure the endplay some day.

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GVR-4
Creative Name Huh?
77/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 19543 posted 05/07/04 01:48 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
quote:
Originally posted by spoulson:

It seems to me that shimming is a practice that needs to be perfected over time.

Yeah, I agree with you that it seems to boil down to trial and error. But it sure is a drag that we have tear the tranny apart every time it's not just right.

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speedholes
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 217361 posted 05/12/05 09:52 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
My tranny pops out of first gear and grinds horribly, nearly impossible to use. checked most of the easy external things, im narrowing it down to something inside the tranny... I'm a noob, and i would like/desperately need help and pointers. This looks like a great thread, keep it going.

thx, Joe

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speedholes
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 218895 posted 05/17/05 09:20 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
I got the tranny dropped!!! woot. Well, I'm happy, and now i can do what i need to get a better shifting tranny in there.

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