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Re: Liquid to air Intercooler Tank Building (pictures)`


Lucian Bartik
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184539 posted 02/17/05 01:09 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Carbon graphite has a conductivity as much as 7 times greater than aluminum. Imagine what we'll be seeing in heat exchangers as graphite foams come onto the market.

Chris, do you already have the PWR core? I hear Laminova core materials are the stink. They are starting to pop up all over the place.

LB

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Pivvay
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184542 posted 02/17/05 01:13 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

Chris, do you already have the PWR core? I hear Laminova core materials are the stink. They are starting to pop up all over the place.
LB




Not yet unless it's coming for my b-day on Sat. I think i will try it to start with since I need to get the car reassembled but maybe I'll try a different core later. Got a link to Laminova?

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Lucian Bartik
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184546 posted 02/17/05 01:24 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

Quote:

Got a link to Laminova?




It's difficult seeing as how they're a sweedish company. I don't know who vends their stuff yet. I don't know if they sell full cores or just core materials.

Here is a pic of one of their water/oil coolers. Core material is probably similar to that for air/water intercooling.



http://www.laminova.se/

I'll continue sniffing around and try to determine where people are getting this stuff.

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Lucian Bartik
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184551 posted 02/17/05 01:50 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
If you've seen cutaways of the new ecotec (ion redline or cobalt supercharged) intake manifold with built-in intercooling, you've seen laminova at work. I will find a pic... Can't need magazine archives... They are owned by Opcon apparently, the makers of autorotor superchargers (claimed to be the worlds most efficient) and they own lysholm too. Funny the GM uses an Eaton. A shame. Visit Opcons sight they might have better infos.

http://www.opconab.com/index.asp?cID=10&langID=2&sPage=1

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GVR-4
Creative Name Huh?
77/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184552 posted 02/17/05 01:53 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Chris, I just read your post in the General Discussions forum and then read this one. My question is would you need a resevoir at all for a daily driver? If I put a nice fat aluminum exchanger that's 28" x 8" x 2" (the same size of the opening in the bumper cover) in place of a front mount air/air and had the electric pump come on based on the water temp in the barrel intercooler, would that work? I realize you're building a track car and the ice thing is key for that, but is a resevoir really needed if the heat exchanger is big enough?



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Peter

Can't polish a turd.

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steve Galant VR4.org Administrator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184553 posted 02/17/05 01:56 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

Chris, I just read your post in the General Discussions forum and then read this one. My question is would you need a resevoir at all for a daily driver? If I put a nice fat aluminum exchanger that's 28" x 8" x 2" (the same size of the opening in the bumper cover) in place of a front mount air/air and had the electric pump come on based on the water temp in the barrel intercooler, would that work? I realize you're building a track car and the ice thing is key for that, but is a resevoir really needed if the heat exchanger is big enough?




My half a penny says that you want that water pumping at all times to draw the heat out of the air charge. But my opinion on this is about as good as flipping a coin.



I know it's a foreign idea for most of us here, but you might want to try taking the car off jackstands.
-mitsuturbo

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GVR-4
Creative Name Huh?
77/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184554 posted 02/17/05 01:57 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

My half a penny says that you want that water pumping at all times to draw the heat out of the air charge. But my opinion on this is about as good as flipping a coin.




What about when it's 25* outside and you start your car to warm it up?

This thread is cool.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Peter

Can't polish a turd.

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Pivvay
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184559 posted 02/17/05 02:07 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
In a DD i think the battle is on time vs off time. The bigger your reservior the more "cooler" water you can store in the res with the pump off and the more mass of water you have to absorb heat. If you had a big enough heat exchanger then that acts as a reservor itself. The more capacity you have then the more time you have at WOT without heat soaking on the street and then if you significant off time then hopefully the system can cool back down enough. Carrying a lot of capacity is heavy though, 8 pounds a gal roughly. Air to air is lighter and simplier on the street.

Also if you have a water/air I don't know why you would ever deny yourself a tank to do ice water cooling at the track

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steve Galant VR4.org Administrator
Key Fob Guy


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184560 posted 02/17/05 02:11 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

This thread is cool.




Har har.



I know it's a foreign idea for most of us here, but you might want to try taking the car off jackstands.
-mitsuturbo

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Pivvay
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184564 posted 02/17/05 02:16 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Mine runs purely off a switch. I guess on a street car you could tie it to a master switch and then make it come on with boost, at a certain temp, etc etc.

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Lucian Bartik
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184566 posted 02/17/05 02:18 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Post deleted by Lucian Bartik

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GVR-4
Creative Name Huh?
77/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184567 posted 02/17/05 02:28 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

Quote:

This thread is cool.




Har har.




No pun was intended.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Peter

Can't polish a turd.

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cheekychimp Galant VR4.org Moderator
Director of Housing and Urban Development, and carbon/kevlar balls


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184632 posted 02/17/05 06:07 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Laminova Coolers,
I wrote to the swedish company before, and they put me onto a UK distributor

http://www.thinkauto.com/index.htm

Not ideal for you Chris but they might be able to help out.

Paul



Getting old sucks ... but it sure beats the alternative !!!

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Lucian Bartik
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184690 posted 02/17/05 09:23 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Here is the fixed and lengthened post. (spelling and readability)

Quote:

Chris, I just read your post in the General Discussions forum and then read this one. My question is would you need a reservoir at all for a daily driver? If I put a nice fat aluminum exchanger that's 28" x 8" x 2" (the same size of the opening in the bumper cover) in place of a front mount air/air and had the electric pump come on based on the water temp in the barrel intercooler, would that work? I realize you're building a track car and the ice thing is key for that, but is a reservoir really needed if the heat exchanger is big enough?




I will suggest that it probably isn't possible to get enough heat rejection from the exchanger to live without the thermal storage capacitor. Here is the scenario:

Most driver cars (not race cars) have low boost duty cycle and short bursts of high charge temps. This was also suggested by Chris moments before this was written as well.

The beautiful thing about water/air systems is that they can disconnect the instantaneous intercooler load on the system from the instantaneous heat rejection capacity of the heat exchanger with this capacitor.

So, you went hella hard from one stoplight to another racing some punk. The whole time you are sitting at the next light, your system is working off that last run so that it can be ready to start working immediately when charge temps go up. Where as the air to air system probably didn't get enough airflow across the intercooler to really start working well until you had to hit the brakes before running the light.

Another scenario: You are on the track or up in the mountains climbing a pass and going at it real hard. On the boost more than off. You are moving at a good pace (probably speeding). Your air/air unit is probably going to be taxed as the components all over the engine bay start to heat up but this is its element, lots of ambient air flowing accross its surface. Your water/air unit probably worked well right when you got on it but the average temperature of the water in the system is rising, and it will continue to do so while you are on the throttle. There is a good thermo explanation for why it is impossible to get as low a charge air temp from water/air in this situation:

The temperature differential between the intercooler and the compressor outlet is very large making for large heat (energy) transfer. The temperature differential between the water in the exchanger and the atmosphere cooling it is very slight in comparison. As the system gets soaked with heat though, this differential increases, improving it's [exchanger] effectiveness, but the intercooler is loosing effectiveness while this is happening. This suggests that there is a point where efficiency will stop dropping (never reach zero) An air/air system will have prety much constant efficiency in this situation on the other hand that will likely be higher than the average efficiency of the water/air throughout this hill climb.

The thermostatic control idea is solid however. A highway cruise mostly off boost would probably be fine with convective fluid flow and wouldn't require pumping.

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Barnes
Firechicken
908/1000
237/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184736 posted 02/18/05 12:51 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
This is all well and good the infomation here, however. What I want to know is if ANYONE has any imperical data on this? I mean, i've read a zillion threads about this subject. Yet it seems no one has data on the two systems. All this would really take is someone to stick a water temp gauge onto the cold side of the IC water supply and monitor the temps.

Sure, theory says that such and such can happen. But at what points? These theoretical points may be so far beyond the scope of the system we are dealing with, it might not matter.

To me it seems it all boils down to what can get rid of heat, in terms of joules, faster. An air/air IC, or the heat exchanger for a air/water setup.

Perhaps I'm talking out my ass. Thermo is next year so maybe I'll figue it out then. But I'm sure another one of these threads will pop up for me to use my new found knowledge with. Hopefully before that point we can get some numbers from some people and come to a conclusion.

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cheekychimp Galant VR4.org Moderator
Director of Housing and Urban Development, and carbon/kevlar balls


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184738 posted 02/18/05 01:18 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
BarnesMobile,
I understand where you are coming from, I too would really like to know which system is better for a street car. But the problem here is that in order to get definitive results you would need two identical cars, one with an air-to-air and one with a water-to-air intercooler and run them over varying but identical loads to ascertain which worked best in different circumstances.

When does the water-to-air stop being efficient? Well in layman's terms basically as soon as it's temperature rises to the point where it can no longer reduce the temperature of the charge air as well as the ambient air can.

The problem is that anticipating when this will happen is almost impossible as it depends on so many other factors. How hot your charge air is, how efficient your water-to-air unit is (and therefore how quickly it absorbs heat), how big your auxiliary radiator is.

Think of it this way, a pan on a hob full of water that is being continuously pumped out of the pan and through another shallow container over which air is being blown with an electric fan, before returning to the original pan.

How long will it take for the water to boil? That depends on the setting of the hob (how much heat your engine is producing), the surface area of water exposed to cooling air in the shallow container (the size of your auxiliary rad) the speed of flow and size of the fan (combination of frontal area of your auxiliary rad and vehicle speed) ... not to mention how cold the water was to start with !!!

It's tough for anyone even with a water-to-air system to be able to say much more than it works, compared to a similar air-to-air.

Paul.



Getting old sucks ... but it sure beats the alternative !!!


Edited by cheekychimp (02/18/05 01:22 AM)

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powerplay
Yes Man
525/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184753 posted 02/18/05 05:30 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
There is some information on the subject here.
Clicky

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Pivvay
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 190658 posted 03/07/05 10:10 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Got a little farther. Just a few more pieces and i'll be done. More bungs are on order and I need to pick a lid and get it done. The inside corner weld didn't turn out the prettiest but i was happy considering it was my first inside corner ever.





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cheekychimp Galant VR4.org Moderator
Director of Housing and Urban Development, and carbon/kevlar balls


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 190696 posted 03/08/05 04:11 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Looking REALLY good Chris. It's going to be hard competing with you on the ULTIMATE rebuild this year. I think I'm going to have to out do you on interior design because I obviously ain't going to compete on HP ...

How much chassis work have you done on your car Chris? You are going to have to harness a lot of power here.

Paul.



Getting old sucks ... but it sure beats the alternative !!!

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Pivvay
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 190747 posted 03/08/05 08:01 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

How much chassis work have you done on your car Chris? You are going to have to harness a lot of power here.
Paul.




Not nearly enough is finished. I'm focusing on getting the car running as soon as I can so I can drive it to work everyday (lol) and finish a lot of welding after work like I have been with these side projects.

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Scott Y
mighty skunk hunter
953/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 190756 posted 03/08/05 08:29 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Speaking of side projects.... <poke> <poke>

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number3
Senior Member


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 190788 posted 03/08/05 10:16 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

Looking REALLY good Chris. It's going to be hard competing with you on the ULTIMATE rebuild this year. I think I'm going to have to out do you on interior design because I obviously ain't going to compete on HP ...

How much chassis work have you done on your car Chris? You are going to have to harness a lot of power here.

Paul.




Bring it on...



Harry
Three-speed.com
---------------------------
Pictures here

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Pivvay
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 190794 posted 03/08/05 10:30 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Interior? Only enough to meet class rules. I'll have to compete on horsepower and times alone, otherwise there are much nicer cars than mine.

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14u2nV
Resident Pedobear


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 190817 posted 03/08/05 11:22 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Just out of curiosity: Would something like antifreeze be better than water??? The reason I'm thinking this, is because it won't freeze as easily. You could put a couple jugs of it in the freezer for a day or two, then pull them out, dump them in and go. It would be colder than Ice, and you wouldn't have to wait for the ice to melt or worry about it plugging lines. Just curious?



~Kenneth Brian
"Censorship offends me" ~Author Unknown


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Pivvay
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 190824 posted 03/08/05 11:48 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
Quote:

Just out of curiosity: Would something like antifreeze be better than water??? The reason I'm thinking this, is because it won't freeze as easily. You could put a couple jugs of it in the freezer for a day or two, then pull them out, dump them in and go. It would be colder than Ice, and you wouldn't have to wait for the ice to melt or worry about it plugging lines. Just curious?




Kenneth,

You want the phase change of ice to absorb heat, not the temperature. Temperature of the ice is almost irrelevant compared to the heat it absorbs changing from a solid to liquid.

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