Suspension (beating the dead horse)

[s_firestone]

I'm rounding up parts to replace my 15 year old suspension. I have done a lot of reading and I am just as undecided as when I started due to the overall disparity of opinions.

I will begin this post with saying I really do *NOT* want to lower the car. I live in Mississippi and our roads make the WRC courses look like a shiny new asphalt freeway. Mostly warped pavement and expansion joints from underlying Yazoo Clay (Which expands/contracts from rain). I want the suspension travel. I do not want to ruin my groceries or kids going airborne at 70MPH. If I wanted a schoolbus suspension I would buy a schoolbus. I am also on a budget.

This car is a DD road warrior that is driven hard 60 Miles a day.

I have already gathered the following parts:

Front A arms with poly bushings, new ball joints and end links
New Mitsubishi outer tie-rods
New Mitsubishi sway bar bushings
New Mitsubishi upper strut mounts

I will be obtain a combination of poly and rubber bushings for the remaining rear suspension parts.

Time to pick a spring/strut/shock combo.

I would like to know at the stock height, what spring/shock combo would be good? Keeping in mind I could just go buy a new set of Mutsubishi OEM springs.

I have ruled out Tein due to comments about street-ability. No it does not have to ride like a caddy(As I don't OWN a Caddy). It should however ride minimally as good as the Galant currently does stock.

I am considering

New stock springs with GR2

New stock springs with AGX (What effect insufficient rebound damping)

Hotbits (drool...but pushing beyond the top end of my budget) (how are they on a steet car)

Evo 8 springs AGX combo (not really plug and play considering the spring cut and insecure fit in our mounts)

I considered a couple of coil-over spring kits with AGX(GC friggin over-expensive. And I hear about as many gripes as endorsements) Actually looking at Cosmo dual spring Evo II kit assuming they don't have 500lb springs.

I have considered standalone replacement springs but nobody makes one that does not drop the car minimum 1" (That includes Whiteline)

Keep in mind the wife factor, she drives this car too(and more importantly she and my children have to ride in it when I'm driving).

I don't want to shoot in the dark(bullets are too expensive). I understand a suspension is a subjective thing. The GVR4 is a jack of all trades. I would like to keep that property.

I understand that no one suspension can be perfect for rally/track/street. But I would like to take a minor step in that direction improving all aspects of handling without totally sacrificing ride quality (I like my kidneys).

I imagine the replacement of worn parts will yield a drastic improvement by itself.

Ok, let the suggestions fly!

 

For a sporty street setup stock ride height, I can vouch for H&R springs and AGX's. I know the AGXs are not the world's best but if the spring rates are not too high (H&R are about 50% stiffer than stock) they will be adequate.
(It has been years since I ran the H&Rs. They may lower the ride a little, say 1/2 inch or so I can't remember, but it is not a great deal and would not cause tire interference or anything like that.)
Mike R.

 

[04DrBlur]

Just from personal experiance I think the GR-2 suck. I would go with the AGX. A full poly bushing kit is a great upgrade. I ride around with full poly upgrade 1g AWD springs and a 22mm rear bar. The best thing I have done for the handling was go to an 18 inch wheel. Its probably more the tire but I was running around on some really good 205 50 15 before the switch and they didnt handle anything like the 18's do. The 1G awd springs do not lower the car much.

 

[skivittlerjimb]

Not perfect, but worked well for me for the last few years in frost-heave land:

-stock springs
-AGXs
-WL bushings and sway bars (22mm front, 26mm rear)

Takes away most of the body roll, cleans up the slop of the worn-out, OEM bushings, yet keeps your suspension travel pretty much the same. IIRC, the AGXs lower your car a tad (a centimer or two?) simply due to where they locate the spring perch on the shock body. Yes, ride is a bit harsher depending on where you dial in the AGXs. For daily driving I keep them on 2F and 2R. On 1s, I bet even your wife'd drive it! Also, stiffening the sway bars does make the suspension less independent, which, given the right set of road surfaces, can launch your groceries, but that's not a daily occurance.

I've had that set up for a while now and I like it, but with more track days and autoxs in the future I'm upgrading to GC coilovers with 280lb. front, 220 lb. rear springs. I'm worried the AGXs won't be able to control them, but we'll see. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif Konis may be in my future.

Also, read everything suspension-related that Bob in Chicago has posted- some very good tips and options in there you may not have considered.

Good luck. Let us know your results!

-Jim B.
1432/2000
(waaaay too close a number to 1342)

 

[GVR-4]

I feel your pain as far as reading a ton on suspension for the VR-4 and not feeling like I am any better off. As you already stated, suspension is so subjective, which makes it even tougher.

I know these guys are touting the AGX's, but I have them with stock Galant springs and I think they suck. They are too harsh. They are just too much damper for a comfortable ride on a DD in my opinion. Maybe it's the fact that I have 17" wheels with 215/45/17 tires. The side wall height of the tire has big impact on how the car rides.

I do know that the damper (strut or shock) has a lot more to do with how the suspension feels than the spring does. And that's why I think the AGX's are the reason I'm not happy with my setup. The car had 1g lowering springs (~1.5 ") on it when I bought it and it rode like crap. Now I'm back to stock Galant springs and it's better, but still too harsh.

From what I've read about the different setups some of the guys on the board have, two possibilities come to mind for you: (1)GR2's with stock springs or possibly HR's or (2)Koni's with Stock springs or possibly 1g's on the front. The first setup is what Jeff Oberholtzer has on his car and the second is what Ken Inn had on his car when he sold it. Both of these guys are older and don't want some super harsh riding car and I think they both liked their respective setups. I would do a search or check out the Readers Rides section and maybe e-mail them both for feedback.

Good luck.

 

[s_firestone]

I also considered stock springs, GR2 fronts, AGX rears. The rear of the car could stand a little tightening.

Do the AGX's suffer from the harshness or rebound problem at the stock ride height?

You mentioned HR springs. I looked up the GVR4 application and they only show the sport spring (As opposed to the OE Sport), as being available, a 1.3"/1.4" drop. Thats just too much drop. At that rate I'll start hitting frame members and exhaust on some of the roads here.

 

[atc250r]

Here is my combo and I can't say enough good things about it:

- AGX's F&R set to 1 for DD duties

- Evo8 springs in the back

- DSM springs with 1 turn cut off in the front

- ST 1" rear bar

- Stock front bar with urethane bushings

- Front control arms have Whiteline bushings front and rear

- All rear control arms have Energy Suspension bushings

- Ingalls camber kit in front

- Tein camber plates in front

The camber plates were put on 6 months after all the other stuff and were only added because my stock top mounts were getting very dryrotted. They really didn't make much difference in the way the car feels but the price was right. Everyone who has driven the car so far was impressed. Tom's car has 70,000 on it with Bilsteins last I checked and mine has 180,000 but when he drove it he was impressed by how tight it was compared to his /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif. My buddy who has a C5 Z06 Vette was amazed at how well it handled and how comfortable it still was on the highway. As far as coil overs, I've gotten a lot of driver's seat time in TurboRich's car during the two months its been at my house and his Teins are down right painful IMHO. I know some of the guys here have them and will fight me on this until the bitter end but when I put his car on the lift the rear wheels only droop about an inch and the front don't drop much more!! There is no way in hell that the suspension can work properly like that. To be fair, they are DSM ones in that car. Coil overs are great for the track but are not good at all in a DD situation. I'd take my set up over those Teins even if the Teins cost half as much as they do.

John

 

[s_firestone]

Thanks John, I think I may try that route. I'm going to start collecting parts. You used cut 1G or 2G springs in the front?

 

[iceman69510]

1g. Same I have currently, I do believe.

 

[atc250r]

Yes, they are 1G springs in the front.

John

 

[s_firestone]

Now to obtain me some hippie coolaid and I'm off to visit the suspension fairy! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif

 

Do a search, there are some beefy Montero parts that will fit while you're ordering parts.

 

I've read the above and am very impressed with the quality/knowledge that our fellow GVR4 members have. Here're my pronouncements based on 140,000+ miles DD use in potholed environment of Chi-town:

1. Get 50 series tires; lower profile tires are only for glass-smooth roads. Fill out your wheel wells with 17" rims, esp. if you run near-stock ride height. A 1" drop is maximum.
2. Softer spring rates are OK, IF you run stiffer sway bars and full poly suspension bushings. Start with a big rear sway bar before deciding if you need a stiffer front.
3. Ditch the AWS. Swap in a DSM rear diff or weld up the AWS rack to fix rear steering. There's a posting about welding the rubber "passive rear steer" bushing that will remain (search for Bimmubishi's posts on this.) As they say in prison, a tighter rear-end makes for the best feeling, especially with our front-heavy cars.
4. AGX stocks are a "Best Value" as long as you stay UNDER 200 lb/inch front springs and 150-
200 lb/inch rears. Coil-over springs should be free length of 10" F & 10 or 12" R, if you have threaded coilover perches. Search for my posts on coil-over do it yourself.
5. Get a set of caster bushings to tighten up steering and increase neg. camber in tighter turns.
6. Stay away from pillow-ball camber plates (steel-on-steel) as front strut mounts; buy new OEM rubber mounts. Buy camber bolts to increase front neg. camber to at least neg. 1.0 degree. Neg. 1.5 degree is better and OK for street use.
7. Get 4-wheel alignment EVERY spring; your settings will drift after a season of potholes or Tobacco Road driving. Bad toe in/out will kill your tires in one month.
8. Finally, Got Stop? Or, how's your brakes?

 

[atc250r]

Quote:
6. Stay away from pillow-ball camber plates (steel-on-steel) as front strut mounts; buy new OEM rubber mounts.



Interesting. What is your reasoning behind that? You're infinitely more educated on suspension set ups that I am, Bob so I'm curious as to why you say that.

John

 

[Redlinegvr4]

i am so lost.

 

Quote:
As they say in prison, a tighter rear-end makes for the best feeling



Is there something we don't know about you Bob?

 

[kartorium]

Bob was listing out what would make a tight daily driver setup it seems, which explains the pillowball mounts not being needed. Any solid mounts will just make the ride more harsh. Like you said above, it didn't make much difference in the car so you'd be better off with stocker replacements to keep the ride tight but not harsh.

Unless he was thinking otherwise...in which case I want to know your thoughts too Bob! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

Kartorium read my mind correctly. The original criteria needed a wife-friendly ride on nasty, bad roads. So, I figured that meant no steel-on-steel front strut mounts, which transfer too much road vibration into the car.

He needs to retain a lot of suspension travel to soak up the bumps and potholes. Slightly stiffer springs will firm up the ride without overwhelming the shocks. Bigger swaybars help too. When the bump is on one side, they increase spring rate only on the wheels on that side as they run up over the bump.

The GVR4 suspension geometry is flawed & produces a fair amount of bump-steer at both ends(toe in/out change as the suspension compresses and rebounds.) Unless you relocate the steering rack and/or run radically stiff springs to limit suspension travel, bump-steer's always going to compromise handling. Luckily, GVR4's enjoy a fair amount of increased neg. camber as the suspension is compressed which "banks" the outside tire into the turn. His handling will still be very much improved with the mods suggested.

 

[iceman69510]

Quote:
AGX stocks are a "Best Value" as long as you stay UNDER 200 lb/inch front springs and 150-200 lb/inch rears. Coil-over springs should be free length of 10" F & 10 or 12" R, if you have threaded coilover perches. Search for my posts on coil-over do it yourself.



Bob,

You were running higher spring rates than that on AGX at one point IIRC. You still are I believe. Have you changed shocks? What behavioral characteristics lead you to that conclusion?

 

[atc250r]

Its funny that you should say that. I was amazed at the fact I noticed no difference in noise or harshness when I switched to the pillow ball mounts. I'm certainly in agreement with you that for what Steve has planned the best bet would be new stock uppers and an Ingalls kit but if a good deal on plates comes along I'd still say jump on it. The stock uppers are probably around $40 or $50 each so when I found the pair of GVR4 specific Tein mounts for $100 I jumped on it. The funny thing is that without the Ingalls kit I could barely dial in any negative camber before the springs would hit the strut towers. Thanks for the input.

John