round hole square peg as usual ...big brakes inside

[curtis]

LONG WEEK.................. sorry its long

I've had stealth calipers and rotors for almost a year and started fab work on them. Garfield sent me a caliper bracket to use as fitment. His are designed with the larger 314mm rotors and I have the 91 model 295mm rotors.....So everything will shift in.

First problem... After drilling the rotors I discovered the caliper hit the wheel, so I tried my other set yep you got it they hit just as bad. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif


So started the quest to fix said problem.

Others have used cobra 13 inch rotors but same problem only way to fix it is to run 1 inch spacers. Which in turn has me building flared fenders which will create another problem I'll want to send the wheels off to be widened. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif

Next thought why not get different rotors with a deeper hat. Yea like I'm going to source those. I did just a few days later, the offset was perfect and spaced the rotor back far enough for the caliper to clear. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

So Problem with these the hats are 8 inch no problem they look killer, center hole is to large ....hell thats easy cut centering rings. First one is done and fits the wheel and the rotor perfect. But this was harder than I wanted and was full of problems had to build vice jaws to uses as ring mounting fixtures, Had to re set up the mill, the gib tolerance as well as the offset and backlash, 3 days of playing with things and I'm still off by .001mm on one axis but thats as perfect as I could make it. Part of that maybe communicates between the stepping motors, the mill computer and the pc that runs it all.

So after the ring comes out I look at the wheel push the ring into place and set the rotor on yea mission accomplished. I start marking the rotor using the wheel as a guide and started measuring. Caliper has plenty of clearance on all edges. I'm happy as a kid at christmas. Go over to the car and start checking I knew the dust shield would have to go but damn its got a next problem. Can't be easy thats how I roll. The design of the hub is screwing me up. The ball joint mount is tucked up close to the hub/rotor so for these to fit I need a hub that the ball joint mount is inward about 20 to 25 mm. 15mm would do it but to be safe I'd like to find the larger. If its more than that I don't car I'm building front arms anyway so axle length issues will be covered anyway.


So question for the board. Do anyone know if the 3000/mirage/3rd gen/diamante/ evo etc etc would have a hub that has the normal tie rod end placement, strut mount etc but have the ball joint mount moved inward. I can always drill the new one for 4 lug. Not changing wheels so don't start that reply. All I plan on doing is paint both sets to match and having winter tires on one set and sticky summer/road race tires on the other. Both sets of my wheels are super light and I'm sticking with them.


Proof that I'm nuts see photos

 

[Dialcaliper]

I believe the 3000GT VR4 hub/uprights are almost a direct replacement for the Galant/DSM ones, but the 3000GT has longer control arms. The only issue is that they have a different axle spline, which can either be solved by building custom axles (you might be able to rebuild the outer CV using the 3kgt version), or B, which I haven't verified, rebuild the 3000GT upright using the Galant Wheel bearing and hub/spline.

I actually have a pair of complete hubs and uprights off a 91 JDM "GTO" VR-4, which I bought solely for the purpose of getting the calipers.

The problem with moving the ball-joint an inch is that you'll be messing with the suspension geometry, in a bad way (you'd effectively be shortening the control arm, which would change the roll center behavior of the front suspension (camber loss in the front is already bad as it is, shortening it would make it worse)

The easy, cop out way to do it would be to simply mount the 91 3000GT VR-4 uprights, rebuild using 5-lug hubs (or redrill the rotors for 4-lug) and DSM wheel bearings and hubs, and simply use the calipers and rotors on the factory 3kgt locations, using 17" wheels. As long as your wheels are a known fit for an early 3KGT VR-4, you're good to go. (Or you could use the stock 17x8.5" wheels as well)

This is just a theory that I can't verify, as they look pretty similar (except for being beefier), but give me a PM and I'll try to take some measurements later tonight.

 

[Dialcaliper]

So I took a quick look at the 3k hubs - it was hard to tell without taking the rotors off, but I figured out a few things:

The strut mount and balljoint taper appear to be positioned identical to the Galant - that part would be a drop in-affair.

The hub itself is completely different. Both the bearing and the axle spline are much larger, and the hub itself is beefier. There are 4 bolts that seem to hold the hub together (In lieu of the "press-in" setup on the galant.

The rotor hats are much shorter, and the rotor and caliper are even closer to the wheel than the galant meaning wheel clearance would be even worse (or the same I guess, if you're using the 3k rotors). The distance from the balljoint to the hub face was hard to tell, but I don't think it was significantly different.

The bad news: The tie rod end is at the same height, but the steering arm is about 6" instead of 5". This means your steering ratio would take a dump to about 21:1 - schoolbus territory.

It looks like you could make it work, but the steering problem is there, and there's little or no chance you could convert to 4 lugs. Also, lower offset wheels would be required, probably along with flares (both of which you seem to be avoiding already)

Your best bet is looking at FWD hubs (maybe 7G galants, 3G eclipse, Diamante, etc) since they are designed with more negative scrub radius for stability under acceleration and braking (more distance tire center to balljoint) *and* high offset wheels (more distance from tire center to hub face) to make room for the CV axle splines.

Just be prepared to deal with the way you'll be mucking up both the suspension and steering geometry

 

[curtis]

I've been looking around and seems like there's no pictures of knuckles anywhere. I guess best bet now is put the stock stuff back on it so I can move it around and wait for better days to hit the junkyard.

Teet has the problem handled on his RX7 project he's using a spacer on the backside of the rotor to space it out from the knuckle...His was interfering with his tie rod end but noting like mine only a few mm's. I may have to have these machined. My mill just doesn't have the work envelope space needed.

I found these which are pricey but buying 8 studs and two chunks of metal plus machine shop time from the local guys would probably make life easier on them and not run so much money because all that would have to happen is knock the studs out and mill down the thickness


Not giving up just going to push it aside for a while. The rotors and calipers just look to sexy filling up the wheels.

As always man thanks for the advice and going to the trouble of pulling the stuff out for me.

 

[RedTwo]

Call me a n00b but which bit is the ball joint and which is the tie rod?
I've got some FTO hubs here but the only difference I can see is that the tie rod (off the steering arm?) is about 20mm lower than the VR4.
Maybe I should take some photos of how I'm doing my 16" big brakes, I don't think I've run into this problem - but then again most of the parts are sitting next to the BBQ...

My camera has taken a dive so I can't get a photo of any of it at the moment. These are VR4 hubs (I think - I haven't labeled the photo very well).

 

[H05TYL]

What on earth....

if i'm following this correctly, your trying to replace most of the front suspension with a mish-mash of different parts, just to avoid buying some wheels that will clear your new calipers? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

I'm sorry to be blunt, but that's so ridiculously ass-backwards it's not funny...

Evo5 and up wheels will clear the brakes and fit inside stock guards - though you'll need to convert to 5-stud hubs.

Though I can't see why you don't just get some 1" spacers - the cost is minimal, and you can easily roll the standard guards enough to suit - no need for flares.

 

[curtis]

From your photo of the knuckle the tie rod hooks to the steering and the ball joint goes to the lower control arm. My problem is that the distance from the flat surface of the hub going inward isn't deep enough. The rotors I selected have a deeper hat which puts the distance from the back of the rotors to the inside of the hat at like 59.5 mm. If you lay a straight edge on the hub face and measure from it inward the lower control arm is like 40mm or so nothing exact yet but the measurement isn't enough to clear the control arm/ball joint area. From the looks of your picture the ball joint mount sits at about the same distance as a stock VR4.

 

[Ted Andkilde]

Curtis, is it the inside edge of the rotor interfering with the ball joint? If yes, is there enough meat on the rotor to chuck it in a lathe and trim away a bit of the inside edge to clear the BJ while still having strength and a good pad contact surface?

Or, just to be really crazy, how about cutting your own hats out of ali and using circle track rotors? Then you could space the rotor exactly where you want it, and get to play with safety wire pliers for hours of additional fun /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

These: rotors are in the ballpark sizewise, $25 apiece.

 

[Armitage]

Quoting Dialcaliper:
I believe the 3000GT VR4 hub/uprights are almost a direct replacement for the Galant/DSM ones, but the 3000GT has longer control arms. The only issue is that they have a different axle spline, which can either be solved by building custom axles (you might be able to rebuild the outer CV using the 3kgt version), or B, which I haven't verified, rebuild the 3000GT upright using the Galant Wheel bearing and hub/spline.

I actually have a pair of complete hubs and uprights off a 91 JDM "GTO" VR-4, which I bought solely for the purpose of getting the calipers.




Sounds like you've put a fair amount of effort into this already. I had a dream at one point of trying to make an Evo wheel hub work as a direct replacement on our cars. I never got around to sourcing the parts to see if the spines were the same. I know the ball joint mounts differently, but it could possibly be pressed into our existing control arms. The benefit of this would be direct bolt up of Evo suspension and 4 piston brakes with no other modifications. Have you looked into this at all?

I've also noticed in the junkyard that some later model (1999 style?) Galants have almost an identical front wheel hub as the Evo. It has the bolt-in style of lower ball joint as well. If one didn't work, perhaps the other would (in terms of axle and overall geometry).

 

[curtis]

Thanks man I'll check those out. John aka Boostx has a 8th gen car and is getting me pictures this weekend of his. Its just to cold here to hit the junkyard to look.

 

[RedTwo]

Check out this 2G brembo page for some photos of 8G? galant hubs. According to that page, the USDM EA5A and EA6A galant/legnum share the same hubs as later evos but the strut mounts don't look friendly.

Early evos (CD/CE9A) hubs are pretty similar to VR4 ones aside from a much higher tie rod arm.

Why not try moving things the other way - discs with a shallower hat? It doesn't need to move out that far either, the 45mm? deep GTO hats only need to moved out 5mm for things to start working easier.