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missing and no codes showing

gmp

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 1, 2007
Messages
549
Location
Denver,co
Well this all started when i was trying to tackle a knock"deadtime" problem.Me and a friend logged the car with a palm and found it had 24 counts of knock at its highest.Which i know "thats high as hell" but the timing and, everything is fine at idle so i dont think its off.So i boost leak tested the car and, found a decent leak but was a fairly easy fix. Then next a plug new plugs in the car (bpr6es) and gapped them at .028. After all that we drovw the car again to see if we made the knock count go down. It seemed to drop a bit at its highest we got 17counts.So i figured since were by it and i had 3/4's of a tank of 91, a gallon of e-85 maybe would help get rid of the other bad counts. After getting gas we drove my car back home which is like 5 minutes from the gas station. Parked it in the drive way and turned off the car. It seemed to be better i only got 15counts on the way home, so we asked (464/2k) ricky what else he touhgt would help.He said maybe turning down the fuel pressure which was at 44psi at the time. Maybe taking it down to like 38 or so could help.So back out to the car to adjust it and i start it up only to find its running like sh*t now and sounds like its missing and wont stay running long. We looked at the datalogger and no dice no codes or anything.


sorry it was a long one it was a long day.
thanks for any in put!
Gary.

oh mods are if it helps any
keydiver stage 3 chip
evo8 560's
2g maft
fmic 2.5 piping
wally 255 pump
adjustable fpr
evo b16g
 

gmp

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 1, 2007
Messages
549
Location
Denver,co
oh sorry i have it set at 15psi for right now cause of the knock issue, and well i was keeping it under that once i knew there was alot of knock.
 

gmp

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 1, 2007
Messages
549
Location
Denver,co
maybe ill go check the ecu it couldnt hurt i guess,and take a look at my knock sensor too while im at it.
 

What fuel pressure is the chip setup for? It sounds like you need MORE fuel, not less, to help with the knock. The HIGH TRIM is a good indicator if you need more or less fuel. How much fuel was in the tank when you added the E85? If it wasn't much, you have REALLY leaned the car out, between lowering the pressure AND adding E85.
Have you checked the base timing with a timing light, as per the VFAQ?
You won't get a CEL for a miss unless the coilpack or transistor are actually bad and not firing.
 

Why did you put E85 in with 91 octane? The 91 already has ~10% E85 in it. Is 91 the highest octane you can get @ the pump where you are? Running 91 octane & 15psi is a bad combination. The car is probably running lean with that combo. I'd just put your settings back to where they were when you 1st mixed the 91 & E85 & fill the tank with 93 & drive around without getting on it for a few days. Then refill with 93 when it get's below 1/2 & see what happens.
 

gmp

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 1, 2007
Messages
549
Location
Denver,co
well i put in e-85 cause i too am an idiot i forgot to put that in my first post... so i checked base timing and its at 850rpm 7deg, as for the chip its set for 47psi base fuel pressure so maybe i need to give it more fuel?

also i had a little more then a half tank of 91 and i only put in 1 gal of e-85
 
Last edited:

gmp

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 1, 2007
Messages
549
Location
Denver,co
well i bumped my fp back up to 47 psi and it seems to run fine again. Dunno about the knock yet i'm going to go to my frineds tonight to log it, and see if there is any difference.

thanks
GMP


and ill keep this updated soon enough
 

Hertz

Staff member
Joined
Jul 29, 2002
Messages
13,501
Location
Chicago, IL
With the timing plug grounded, you should be at 5 deg BTDC (stock). The position at idle without the plug grounded can vary and is not the proper method of checking timing.
 

gmp

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 1, 2007
Messages
549
Location
Denver,co
well at higher altitude toybreaker has said its ok to have the car round 7 to 8 deg to get rid if the laggy idle, i believe is thats what he said.
i dunno like i said im an idiot
 

Glad that we got her at least running again, Gary.

We only have 91 octane here in Colorado at the pump.
 

My understanding is that adding alcohol raises octane, and higher octane helps stave off preignition, otherwise known as knock, but at the same time releases oxygen as it burns creating a hotter leaner mixture.

The biggest problem is that it has much less energy per gallon than gasoline, and straight alk requires a afr of 6.5:1 as opposed to 14.7:1, so obviously if he added way too much alk to not enough gas it could/would cause the car to run like crap.
 

Hertz

Staff member
Joined
Jul 29, 2002
Messages
13,501
Location
Chicago, IL
Quoting gmp:
well at higher altitude toybreaker has said its ok to have the car round 7 to 8 deg to get rid if the laggy idle, i believe is thats what he said.
i dunno like i said im an idiot



I'd believe him when it comes to running at altitude... but everything else is a LIE!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 

gmp

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Joined
Apr 1, 2007
Messages
549
Location
Denver,co
well i bumped the fp up to what the chip is set for, and wahlaa it runs way better.. It only had around 15 counts of knock. It's weird it doesn't seem to get knock as bad if i ease into the throttle but if i mash it it gets it pretty quick. Could this be due to bad plug wires or they need to be replaced?
 

Gary, have you been able to look into using that n/a throttle body yet so you don't have a boost leak in the TB at the seals?
 

toybreaker

iconoclast
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
Messages
3,581
Quoting gmp:
well at higher altitude toybreaker has said its ok to have the car round 7 to 8 deg to get rid if the laggy idle, i believe is thats what he said.
i dunno like i said im an idiot



Was one of us drinking? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif

I vaguely remember a converstation about ignition timing as it relates to idle hop, and the various ramifications and reprecussions of advanced base timing while we were working on a car that had seriously advanced base timing. The only way that car would idle was with advanced timing, because that car was a tooth off on the timing belt...

[For those of you that don't know Gary, he's always helping people sort their cars, and he see's some weird sh*t!]

That particular car had a few hodge podgy mods. It would idle hop with the quickness, (even with the iac unplugged). It was interesting to see the timing run up and fall back as the ecu tried to pick a number that would work. Dialing back the timing about halfway from where it was, (down to 7 or 8 degrees base timing), grounding the t-body, and then properly setting the biss screw got it to idle better.

hopefully, he re-set the t-belt soon after that... I never heard back. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[clarification:]

There is altitude compensation built into the timing maps of these cars in the stock configuration.

The baro sensor built into the airflow meter of the 1g/2g airflow meters feeds air density (altitude) information to the ecu. Combining that with iat, the ecu can then make some informed decisions about the actual mass of the air flowing thru the airflow meter.

for a given volume of air, the density will vary considerably relative to temperature and altitude

Armed with baro and iat, the ecu will then make informed decisions on ignition timing, and for the most part, it will automatically compensate for the decreased density of air at increased altitudes by advancing the ignition timing.

I *believe* my comment was to the effect that relative to the logs flatlanders post you will see additional timing automatically applied by the ecu at higher altitudes when the ecu is actively controling the timing. (on the order of one or two additional degrees), total at Denver's altitude.

..anddddd...

From back in my day, (on non-computer controlled ignition systems), the general rule of thumb was to add 1* for every thousand feet above sea level.


buttttt...

Adding additional base timing to a computer controlled system can potentially cause knock problems and/or make what knock is already occuring worse.

[/clarification]

Sorry if mis-understanding words there was. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 

Hertz

Staff member
Joined
Jul 29, 2002
Messages
13,501
Location
Chicago, IL
:scroll: :scroll: :scroll:

Base timing, with plug grounded, should be 5 deg.

That should take out some knock (if it is actually knocking)... could be noisy valvetrain.
 

gmp

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 1, 2007
Messages
549
Location
Denver,co
indeed toybreaker! your a man of many words most all true except when it comes to white cars hahaha. This just goes to show john is one of the sharper fella's in the dsm, or well any type of tinkering in this world hahahah /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif


well i shall have some new plug wires on the way soon from a member on here.
That will help a bit and i think i will do a bit more tinkering with my fpr and timing/idle issues.
Owning a Galant as many of you know is a never ending game of wallet thiness,anger,smarts,anger,depression,anger,money,time,anger,fun for just a little bit and well just some plan old deep thought of why the hell did i get myself into this hahaha.....
 

Quoting gmp:
well at higher altitude toybreaker has said its ok to have the car round 7 to 8 deg to get rid if the laggy idle



Yes, it is true that slightly more base timing *will* make your car less laggy off-throttle and at part throttle. BUT, that is also whay is causing your knock issues at WOT. You MUST set the base timing to 5*, with a timing light. If you want to run higher base timing, you need to tell me so that I can give you maps that have even less timing on the higher boost maps, to avoid knock issues.
 

This is how I order my chips from Jeff, less timing @ higher boost levels (18+) to help reduce knock. You do lose a little power with less timing up top but nothing significant. You get piece of mind as the payback though. To recover the little power you lose, simply turn up the boost /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif.
 
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