For anyone with 5 lug swap who wants to fix the ABS. (Long)

Ok, i have been doing alot of reasearch on this and i believe the reason the ABS does not work when you do a 5 lug swap is the ABS rings. The TEL rings have less teeth, the teeth serve basicly as speed sensors for the ABS computer.

So when your factory computer looks at the front wheels it sees a diffrent speed from the rear (because of the TEL's less teeth) Since this diffrence doesen't go away, the ABS comp. constantly thinks the fronts are locked.

I believe this is the reason the brakes fail.
I want to try and use a TEL ABS comp. in my car.

I ordered a service manual yesterday, but i am impatient and want to start testing my theory.

If anyone can send me a picture (from the manual) of the GVR4 ABS comp. and the TEL Comp. (Both must be AWD) and the wiring diagrams for both, I will try top see First- If the plugs are the same and just the internal calibration is diffrent (Plug -n- Play); Or- If we can re-pin the TEL harness plug with the GVR4 wires to make it work.

Any help is much appreciated.

I know most of you hate the ABS, but i like it and am, i guess, a little weird (i like everything to work in the car.)

 

I've always heard that everyone swapped both front and rear hubs with their ABS on the 5-lug swap. That way the # of teeth on the ABS rear and front stay the same. End of problem.

 

quote:Originally posted by bob in chicago:
I've always heard that everyone swapped both front and rear hubs with their ABS on the 5-lug swap. That way the # of teeth on the ABS rear and front stay the same. End of problem. Yes you are correct. All the TEL rings are swaped over, but the problem is in the computer. The stock GVR4 computer is set up to see 86 teeth in the front, not 47(TEL). So when it compares the front and rear wheels at the ring it sees a diffrent speed than the back (mismatch in calibration in the computer)
which is why the TEL computer is nessary.

 

Why not use the GVR4 rings instead? Do they not come off? It seems easier than swaping computers but i haven't messed with rings myself.

 

the rings mount different in the front.

 

quote:Originally posted by Pivvay:
Why not use the GVR4 rings instead? Do they not come off? It seems easier than swaping computers but i haven't messed with rings myself. According to other posts, the GVR4 rings need alot of machining to make way for the extra lug, and needs bolt holes machined to atach to the hub. Also the threading is diffrent.

 

Also, until 92(in TELs)the ABS wasnt available with LSD. Because the LSD causes the ABS computer to act up somehow, so those who have swapped in a 4 bolt LSD have to swap computers or disable the ABS completely.

I removed the GVR4 ABS computer today, and tomorrow I will hunt down the one in the Talon. Hopefully the pins placement is the same, but I'm not holding my breath. Anybody know the location of the ABS computer in a TEL? I searched other forums last night and got all kinds of conflicting info.

 

I just did a quick search on DSMTalk...it looks like the T/E/L ABS computer is behind the passenger door in the trim somewhere.

There was a link to this in one of the posts..

http://mario.germain.com/abs.html

 

Got it out. Not only do the pins have the same placement, but the plugs interchange. And the TEL computer is much smaller so it will go into the GVR4. I can't track the colored wires to the pins because plug encloses them. So we still need to look at a schematic to make sure its wired the same. But I got a good feeling about that, because if they changed the wiring they should have moved some of the pins aroun

The TEL has the Nippon ABS Ltd. tag and a Bosch tag.

GVR4 has just the Nippon ABS LTD. tag.

 

I wonder if it is a matter of switching ABS computers to cure the ABS light after driving for about 3/4 of a mile. I should find out exactly how the swap was done from the guy who did my car and see if anything rings a bell to him.

 

quote:Originally posted by Bigfoot:
Got it out. Not only do the pins have the same placement, but the plugs interchange. And the TEL computer is much smaller so it will go into the GVR4. I can't track the colored wires to the pins because plug encloses them. So we still need to look at a schematic to make sure its wired the same. But I got a good feeling about that, because if they changed the wiring they should have moved some of the pins aroun

The TEL has the Nippon ABS Ltd. tag and a Bosch tag.

GVR4 has just the Nippon ABS LTD. tag. Bigfoot, thanks for the legwork. I new i was on to something after i did my research. So now half the battle is done. Was your talon ABS from a AWD and what year?

Anyone have that schematic?

 

92 Talon TSI. AWD LSD ABS and 6 bolt, best year. I tried to post pics, but I'm lame.

 

question though, is that that would make it 3 channel abs as opposed to 2 channel like the galants no?

 

quote:Originally posted by drew:
question though, is that that would make it 3 channel abs as opposed to 2 channel like the galants no? Im not shure i understand your statment, could you clarify a little? Are you saying the TEL uses a 3 channel setup. If so where is the 3rd channel?

 

quote:Originally posted by jayru:
quote:Originally posted by drew:
question though, is that that would make it 3 channel abs as opposed to 2 channel like the galants no? Im not shure i understand your statment, could you clarify a little? Are you saying the TEL uses a 3 channel setup. If so where is the 3rd channel? 90-92 TELs could be had with either ABS or LSD, not both. These came with 2 channel ABS like the GVR4, and for whatever reason Mitsu did not believe 2 Channel ABS and LSD would work.

When they switched to teh 4 bolt rear end in 92, the LSD/ABS combo was available together, because the ABS was changed to 3 channel ABS.

I don't know all the details, but it would seem that a 3 channel ABS computer wouldn't work well with a 2 channel ABS system.

https://www.galantvr4.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=001233

for more info

 

Look at the factory wiring diagrams, it looks like there is a difference between 2,3 & 4 channel ABS in the plumbing - the ABS distribution block. The Galant shows only two solenoids, the DSM shows 3 and the 91 Galant FWD shows 4. If I am reading it right, then in theory the appropriate ABS block should be swapped over too. In reality, that's not practical.

Also in theory the stock 2-channel ABS can't deal with a LSD rear, but mine never complained or worked any differently after the LSD was installed. So I'm not sure it really matters in the real world.

On a side note, I will be taking pictures / VFAQing my 5-lug conversion retaining the stock GVR4 ABS rings and I hope to have it done over the holiday break [no guarantees].

 

[iceman69510]

quote:Originally posted by drew:
quote:Originally posted by jayru:
quote:Originally posted by drew:
question though, is that that would make it 3 channel abs as opposed to 2 channel like the galants no? Im not shure i understand your statment, could you clarify a little? Are you saying the TEL uses a 3 channel setup. If so where is the 3rd channel? 90-92 TELs could be had with either ABS or LSD, not both. These came with 2 channel ABS like the GVR4, and for whatever reason Mitsu did not believe 2 Channel ABS and LSD would work.

When they switched to teh 4 bolt rear end in 92, the LSD/ABS combo was available together, because the ABS was changed to 3 channel ABS.

I don't know all the details, but it would seem that a 3 channel ABS computer wouldn't work well with a 2 channel ABS system.

https://www.galantvr4.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=001233

for more info Slight correction. No 90 TELs had ABS. 91 had ABS or LSD option, not both. 92-94 all had LSD with ABS optional. This all applies to AWD cars only.

My car sets code 15 in the ABS after a short drive. this is just general code and I have not had time to do the troubleshooting yet.

Also a correction to the post above by jayru. VR4s have 86F/43R tooth count, so the computer wants to see the 2:1 ratio. TELS are 47/47, so the computer wants to see 1:1. Computer swap is a possibility, but I would beware the channel difference as Drew said.

On a side note, we have new snow this morning, and even without functional ABS, I love this car in the snow!

 

iceman69510
That was a typo in my post that i corrected. Thanks for pointing it out though.

Do your brakes fail like mine, or does the light just come on?

Does anyone know the exact year 2 chanel ABS was offered in the TEL?

And if anyone still has the cd manual and could send me the wiring diagram for both the GVR4 and TEL 2 channel system, it would be much appreciated.

 

[iceman69510]

I wasn't correcting you, I was referring to Drew's model year breaks. Not even sure what typo you are referring to.

My brakes do not fail, just have the anti-lock come on and code 15 is set. Brakes work fine, but will lock up when I brake hard. I may have a mis-set wheel speed sensor in the LF, which I hope to check this weekend. I also have a LF sensor in the RF of my car, but it has always been there since I got it, with no light before the 5-bolt changeover.