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Extending clutch MC rod, band aid fix?

turbowop

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Apr 29, 2001
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Yes, the mechanical advantage would be great, but the loss in throw just wouldn't work unless the geometry of the pressure plate disengagement was somehow changed. I'm guessing that's not possible since it's like this with pretty much every car out there with heavier clutches. Oh well. Don't skip leg day at the gym. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif
 

prove_it

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No one can complain about our clutches. Has anyone ever driven a heavy clutch in a 02 era V8 Mustang? Holy balls, batman. Those are horrible cable clutches. Feels like your trying to loosen an axle nut with your leg.
 

Jason G.

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Quoting turbowop:
Don't skip leg day at the gym. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif



Bro, do you even lift? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif
 

GSTwithPSI

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Can't say I've ever had the pleasure driving something with a cable operated clutch. I drove my GST for the better part of a decade with an ACT 2600 in it. I thought it was fine, but I've heard people complain about it being a heavy clutch. I think I even remember someone here on the forum say it wasn't streetable one time. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif

My G35 has the heaviest stock clutch I've ever driven. It is easily just as stiff as the ACT 2600. Unless you're in stop and go traffic everyday, I don't see what the big deal is. I prefer the heavier pedal feel, it's just not too good for the pedal assembly. I don't ever want to do another pedal rebuild. Biggest PITA ever.
 
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LIV4PSI

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O-H-I-O
Anyone who can't handle a 2600 is a wuss, end of story.

I can say that I will switch to an automatic before I deal with a twin disc though
 
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turbowop

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A stock clutch as heavy feeling as an ACT 2600? That sounds crazy to me. I don't mind something like a 2600, but compared to the stock GVR4 clutch, my stock Audi clutch, or even a Quartermaster twin...it's heavy as sh*t, IMO.

I'd also like to say that driving around with a heavy clutch is normally not an issue. It's when you're stuck in Seattle stop/go traffic for over an hour while wearing flip flops that it begins to suck. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif
 
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prove_it

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Lol, stop and go, was the greatest enemy of my left leg with the 2600. Wasn't bad, but after the 200th time in 10 minutes, oh god. The mustang I drove would literally make you sick of it just pulling out of a driveway. It pulled with the SC at 7psi, but damn that clutch was brutal.
 

Wookalar

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Nov 27, 2013
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Arizona USSA
Quoting Jason G.:
After replacing everything in the entire clutch system, I was still having disengagement issues. The best I could manage was maybe an inch off the floor before I ran out of MC adjustment. Today I welded a nut in front of the piece that threads into the MC rod to give me a little more adjustment room and now am able to adjust it how I want without any drag.

I replaced the following:
-ACT 2600 pp and disc
-RRE chromoly flywheel (double checked the step -in spec)
-OEM fork and pivot ball
-OEM throwout bearing
-replace rubber line with braided line
-new pedal assembly with Shep bushings (not welded)
-Nabco MC
-New Slave (Dorman)

The fork position favors towards the engine (like the RRE pic that gets posted a lot)and I am still able to push the slave in by hand, not blocking the MC.

I'm somewhat concerned that I had to do this though. I've never had to do this with other DSMs and GVR4s with similar clutches.
Is this or using the 2g MC rod considered a band aid fix like the extended slave rod?



According to the wisemen on tuners yes the extended rod is a band aid fix, as is shimmining the pivot ball.

I went through the same as you, I replaced most comonents - new act 2600, act flywheel, comp clutch forged clutch fork, a new oem pivot ball, new oem slave cylinder, ss clutch line, and I still had issues. Did a lot of reading and decided to suck it up and pull the dash so I coud remove the pedalbox for the brass bushing and welding upgrade. Apparently there is a bushing in the pedal box assemby that wears out faster with cars using a stiffer clutch.

You need to measure the bore of the slave cylinder rod. I cannot recall the correct measurement at the moment but its listed here somewhere on the forum. If that bore is incorrect change it. If the problem persists set aside time to put dash/pedalbox so jnz can perform the bshing/welding mod.

Also, I suggest getting one of those gravity brake bleeder guns to bleed ALL the air out of the system. Basically it trumps all other bleeders because it pushes the air up to the reservior, rather than trying to pump it down through the line and out the caliper.

click
 
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DSSA

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Apr 16, 2002
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PA
There's absolutely no reason to use an extended slave or master cylinder rod if everything else is in working order in the clutch system.

I've actually replaced quite a few pressure plates and release bearings due to people using these "fixes" and over-extending fingers or collapsing the bearings. The worst scenario is when someone uses on of these rods, then down the line fixes the actual problem and doesn't remove the extension.

The most common issue is that of improper bleeding of the hydraulics. Proper instruction has been out there since the days of vfaq.com, but is still missed quite often. This is not to say that in this day of our cars getting older, other problems don't arise (pedal rounding, ballooning rubber lines, failed cylinders, worn pivot/fork), but I still get calls once or twice a month from people who have replaced everything, but still have release issues which typically end up being improper bleeding technique.

While the bleeding system listed above will make the job easier, it won't correct improper bleeding processes.

I would definitely check for leaking at the master (inside the car), the slave, the pedal (do the push down, release slowly, put foot under pedal and pull up--if the pedal comes up more, it's rounded and needs to be fixed), and be sure you don't have a worn pivot/fork in the transmission. After that, I would bleed the system properly.

I posted on DSMTuners a while back in response to someone having release issues:

" A couple of notes on this subject:

1) An extended slave or master cylinder rod is a Band Aid--they mask a problem, and have been documented to cause severe issues in many cases. If everything is working correctly, there is absolutely NO need to use these products. If one of these products has corrected your issue--there's something wrong in your clutch system. Down the line, if you fix this issue, then you end up over-extending the fingers, or mushrooming the T/O bearing.

2) If you're bleeding the clutch by having someone pump the pedal and hold it down, and just cracking the bleed screw on the nut, you're not going to bleed all of the air out of it. We get calls all of the time from people having issues after installing a new clutch, or slave/master claiming that they've bled it properly. I ask them how they did it and they give me the process outlined above.

If you look at a slave cylinder, you'll notice that the bleed screw is right next to the clutch line where it feeds it. Simply pumping/cracking the bleed will only bleed out the line itself. The whole slave cylinder chamber itself is NOT getting bled in this process. Fluid/air in the line comes in--and then right out the bleed. You're not touching the air in the cylinder area.

To properly bleed the system manually:

Step One: Have someone pump the clutch and hold the pedal down. While said person is holding pedal down, open bleed screw. Close bleed screw, have person pull pedal back up and repeat this process two or three times.

Step Two: Next have person pump clutch, hold down pedal, open bleed screw, and then most importantly, SQUEEZE SLAVE CYLINDER SHUT! THEN with pedal down and slave cylinder compressed, close bleeder. This pushes the air out of the cylinder itself which is past the bleed screw. Without this step, the air will just sit in the cylinder no matter how many times you do step one.

Step Three: Repeat Steps One and Two until good pedal is attained, and no more air is coming out when you crack the bleeder."

Hope this helps.

Josh
 

Jason G.

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Anderson, SC
I've bled the system several times per TRE's method as well as bench bleed the MC and slave, then bled again per TRE.
I also have a speed bleeder on the slave.

I'll give your slave method a shot. Mechanically all my other stuff, which is new, pass the tests.
 

GSTwithPSI

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Quoting DSSA:


Step Two: Next have person pump clutch, hold down pedal, open bleed screw, and then most importantly, SQUEEZE SLAVE CYLINDER SHUT! THEN with pedal down and slave cylinder compressed, close bleeder. This pushes the air out of the cylinder itself which is past the bleed screw. Without this step, the air will just sit in the cylinder no matter how many times you do step one.




I always use a pneumatic pressure bleeder to bleed the clutch system, so I've never actually used either of the methods described. I do know that when you hold the clutch pedal to the floor, it sucks down to the floorboard and doesn't return as soon as the bleeder is opened. How do you prevent this? The only way I know is to actually use your hand to actuate the pedal.

Also, when you say squeeze the slave cylinder shut, you mean push on the the clutch fork or slave push rod to return the slave piston all the way back into the body, correct?
 
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turbowop

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Yes, push the slave piston all the way into the bore to bleed the rest of the air. And the pedal staying down is just the way it is when bleeding the line. You need to manually pull it back up.
 

prove_it

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Sioux Falls, SD
That action occurs due to the assist spring in the pedal assembly. Every hydraulic clutch will do this. It's more time consuming, but its how it is.
 

ade

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Aug 16, 2011
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Paumanok NY
and if extensive bleeding doesn't work check your pedal assembly, it was the issue in both mine and tektic's case
 

DSSA

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Apr 16, 2002
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PA
Quoting GSTwithPSI:

I always use a pneumatic pressure bleeder to bleed the clutch system, so I've never actually used either of the methods described. I do know that when you hold the clutch pedal to the floor, it sucks down to the floorboard and doesn't return as soon as the bleeder is opened. How do you prevent this? The only way I know is to actually use your hand to actuate the pedal.




It doesn't matter which way you're doing it--pneumatic or manually. The slave cylinder needs to be squeezed closed at some point during the bleeding in order to get the air out of the cylinder behind the piston.

This is probably going to be easier to show than explain.

Slave Cylinder:







This picture shows the feed port inside:





Directly across from that, is the bleed port:





Simply bleeding it as if it were brake lines would only remove the air from the master and the lines as the fluid will travel into the slave on the feed side and then right out the bleed port (path of least resistance), which does nothing for any air contained in the cylinder itself:



The piston (center of cylinder) is positioned at the point where it usually rests in the car. As you can see, there's a lot of space there (almost as much volume as the complete clutch line itself) for air to get trapped. That's where compressing the piston all the way in towards the feed and bleed ports comes in to play. When squeezed shut, you push the piston all of the way back towards the bleed & feed ports, ridding the slave of the open volume:





Just be sure to compress the piston while the bleeder is open, and close the bleeder before letting the slave cylinder decompress. You want it to suck clean, air-free fluid from the direction of the master cylinder when it refills itself on the way back out.

Using an pneumatic system is fine as well, just make sure that the slave cylinder is compressed while doing it, and to close the bleed screw before you stop suction or pressure (whichever type of bleeder you're using).

If you have problems with pulling the clutch pedal back off of the floor (which is gonna happen if you're not using a pneumatic bleeder and doing it manually), tie a piece of strong string, rope, or a bungee to it so you can pull it back up without reaching down under the dash each time.

Hope this helps.

Josh
 

prove_it

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Did you cut that one? Otherwise I never knew they split like that.
 

DSSA

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PA
That's our special-edition Slave Takedown version. ;-)

Yes, I just introduced one we had sitting around to the band saw.
 
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