COP Reliability

[theevozero]

That totally eliminates the entire point of having a COP if you're still running wasted spark with an ignition amp or cdi. Traditional COP on modern cars is sequential. So, if you're gonna go through all that effort to make a lesser or equal ignition system, why not just leave it alone? Nothing wrong with stock ignition. Or just add a ignition amp onto the stock coil if the need ACTUALLY arises(which most people will never actually need).

 

[theevozero]

Quoting GreenGSX:
I've been using a home built coil on plug set up for over 7 years. That's the same COP on two cars. It started its life on my old track Eclipse. I built it because in one year I had to be towed off track twice because failed set of plug wires (NGK). First set burnt, second set got loose and rubbed the timing belt.

I built my COP with a plate sourced from VR4.org and junk yard coils from an Intrepid. In seven years of racing, including 3 years doing One Lap, I had one coil fail. Otherwise its been great. Starts, idles, and makes power. Recently made 450whp (mustang dyno) with a set of NGK 8's gapped at 0.022. So for me, its reliable and makes great power even without using a CDI box which, are far more flaky than a COP.



I also like timing covers.....I don't think they're less reliable. Its necessity, which most people don't. What would of happened if you left it alone? Nothing. 450whp isn't enough to require a modified ignition system.

 

[GreenGSX]

Top timing covers on road race cars melt and take out the timing belt. No matter what Hp you are running if you can't count on the plug wires holding up then you have to make a change. I did and COP has been very reliable.

 

[theevozero]

That is understandable. You had a purpose. Most people do it because it looks cool or they saw someone else do it and thought it looked cool. Those people don't understand how or why things work before they go dicking with it. But that is the dsm/gvr4 way.

 

[prove_it]

Quoting theevozero:
I mean, if you don't like a consistent tune, then sure. If accuracy is something hate, go for it. I tune once and go. The aem is the exact same every time I hit the throttle. Afr's and timing are always dead on, through all temperature changes.




Have you ever ran EcmLink? Really, it sounds like your trashing a program you've never used. My tune is dead on. You mock it saying it's simple. Well go call up Tom Doris and ask him to tell you the amount of work he's spent on the program. I've worked with Link, Aem, Motec, Hks Vpc, Maf translators, Safc's.... blah blah blah. I praise Link because it's absolutely perfect for street cars. I've seen way more AEM Ecu's fail then Link. Way way way more.

Link is a very accurate ecm tuning tool. When you go to full standalone, all your truly adding is more outputs and inputs. A real tune will stay accurate as long as no parts get swapped and sensors remain fully operational. The tuner is the one who makes it inaccurate, not the software.

 

[theevozero]

Yes, I had link for about 5 years before ditching it. I've already explained myself. I'm not gonna do it again.

 

[slugsgomoo]

I have an AEM V1 car, DSMLink 2.5 car, and help a buddy with ECMLink V3... To say that ECMLink isn't capable is selling it awfully short. Comparing 2.5 with the AEM there's no contest. If V3 had been around when I bought my AEM I might've stayed with that on the galant as well, even though there are some other benefits to using it (mostly input/logging based).

There's no question that the AEM is way more of a pain in the ass, and way more finicky about things being set correctly than link is, in just about every way.

 

[prove_it]

Anyways, back to the COP reliablity, I gotta say I have been using it for years at 300whp with zero problems. Setting the timing does involve swapping the coil pack and wires but that's no big issue.

 

[cheekychimp]

Quoting theevozero:
That totally eliminates the entire point of having a COP if you're still running wasted spark with an ignition amp or cdi ...

450whp isn't enough to require a modified ignition system.




Hang on a minute so if someone is running a 450 hp car they shouldn't install COP with a CDI (even if it is perfectly capable of meeting their goal and improving gas mileage etc) but instead they should install a 1500 hp capable ignition on a daily driver just to satisfy you desire to see things optimized?

Oh that's right we don't actually NEED improved gas mileage right. Just better drag strip times!

 

[Gizmovr4]

ECM link - I see nothing wrong with it ! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif ... Then again I see nothing wrong with running COP either ! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif.

I have to agree with Wop ( this doesn't happen often /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif) dsm link is affordable - works well and is consistent. I'm not knocking AEM they make a good product, however for the money I would rather have link ! I will agree that AEM does allow for extra data logging and additional injectors 8 vs 4 and does have a few other features that are nice. These features would perhaps be usefull on 431 that is making over 750hp at the wheels, but likely wouldnt improve the performance of the car! For most cars including my other car 584 that's also using link and making 550hp at the wheels you would never make use of the added features. Basically link works perfect in my opinion In both my cars why spend the extra $ on aem?

COP - Curtis did a great job on the cop we have been running on 431. Is it better than the stock setup? Is it better than an aftermarket ignition ? I don't know - but I do know it was on the car when it ran 9.3@147 !!

~Nelson

 

[theevozero]

You people are putting words in my mouth and going off on a tangent. I never said I didn't like link. I agree, it is better for MOST people and I would even say I would use it again. I simply stated that the link is and always will be maf based and stand alone systems, such as aem/motec/etc.. are capaple of real speed density, when dsm link is not. Although, if the argument is about money, I would probably use Ostrish 2.0 with a maf(since it is less than half the cost of link, just not as much support), its been out for much longer than v3 and is very similar and just as capable, if not more, than link, in my opinion of course. So, just so we're all clear, I do not hate link. No I do not work for aem, I am simply stating the superior capabilities of a stand alone. I am not gonna sit here and defend a product just because I have one installed in my car.

As far as cop goes, my argument is simple, if you're gonna use it for a purpose, then go for it. But if you're gonna do something just to do it, you're wasting your money. If you feel that you need to upgrade your ignition system for whatever reason, why use a cop system as wasted spark. I don't understand. Unless your experiencing some act of god and your plug wires keep melting down, then, I don't see the purpose. Install an ignition amp...done. Wasted spark system, being used as such. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif Where is the "beating a dead horse" graemlin when you need it?

 

[cheekychimp]

Quoting theevozero:
But if you're gonna do something just to do it, you're wasting your money.



What? You mean like gutting a VR4 to drag race it when a DSM fully equipped already weighs less?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif Where is the "beating a dead horse" graemlin when you need it?

 

[cheekychimp]

Quoting theevozero:
But if you're gonna do something just to do it, you're wasting your money.



What? You mean like gutting a VR4 to drag race it when a DSM fully equipped already weighs less?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif Where is the "beating a dead horse" graemlin when you need it?

 

[theevozero]

Quoting cheekychimp:
Quoting theevozero:
But if you're gonna do something just to do it, you're wasting your money.



What? You mean like gutting a VR4 to drag race it when a DSM fully equipped already weighs less?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif Where is the "beating a dead horse" graemlin when you need it?



Was that aimed at me? Because, that is a mighty inaccurate ASSumption. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/applause.gif

 

[cheekychimp]

I don't know? 'Are' you an ASS?

No, it wasn't directed at you, I don't even know if you actually own a VR4! My point simply was that owning and tuning one of these cars is not about optimum performance. I can see your point, really I can, but just as I think it would be unfair to beat on you for looking to optimize power, I think it's unfair to ASSume that everyone who does the COP mod does it in ignorance and is wasting their money. Most in my opinion do it to make the engine bay look cleaner and if that is what they want and it works at least as good as stock (which I think it does) especially with a decent CDI, then why give them a hard time about it?

Similarly with Speed Density. I do take your point. If you are competent with AEM and can make more power with it, you'd be dumb not to use it if you got it for a decent price and are happy spending the time tuning it. But at the end of the day most people want something they can use to get their car running well. If it starts, idles and runs well and gets good mileage, most people aren't going to give a damn whether the ecu is MAF or SD based. Now if that same person is on here bitchin' about not being able to get into the 9s whatever they do, then please feel free to educate them on where they are going wrong in not making the most of certain areas of the tune ... but for a daily driven street car, does it really matter?

I'm sorry if I came across as giving you a hard time, I'm just saying if you want people to see your point of view, try to see theirs.

 

[curtis]

Coil over plug and COP beats dead horse everytime...... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif

 

[theevozero]

Quoting cheekychimp:
I don't know? 'Are' you an ASS?

No, it wasn't directed at you, I don't even know if you actually own a VR4! My point simply was that owning and tuning one of these cars is not about optimum performance. I can see your point, really I can, but just as I think it would be unfair to beat on you for looking to optimize power, I think it's unfair to ASSume that everyone who does the COP mod does it in ignorance and is wasting their money. Most in my opinion do it to make the engine bay look cleaner and if that is what they want and it works at least as good as stock (which I think it does) especially with a decent CDI, then why give them a hard time about it?

Similarly with Speed Density. I do take your point. If you are competent with AEM and can make more power with it, you'd be dumb not to use it if you got it for a decent price and are happy spending the time tuning it. But at the end of the day most people want something they can use to get their car running well. If it starts, idles and runs well and gets good mileage, most people aren't going to give a damn whether the ecu is MAF or SD based. Now if that same person is on here bitchin' about not being able to get into the 9s whatever they do, then please fell free to educate them on where they are going wrong in not making the most of certain areas of the tune ... but for a daily driven street car, does it really matter?

I'm sorry if I came across as giving you a hard time, I'm just saying if you want people to see your point of view, try to see theirs.



It's all good. I can always appreciate an actual conversation, versus people just defending it because they like it and use it. I understand what you're saying also. My opinion is based off of what I have seen and read on forums of what and why people do things. I can certainly appreciate effort put into a car that serves an actual purpose. I guess I have become very critical of myself and people I consider my peers, as I have aged, gathered education, experience and so on. I guess you can say that I am an OCD car nerd. I am more concerned with knowing exactly how something works and why, than anything else really. So, when someone places the label "speed density" on dsmlink's version, I have to say something. Don't get me wrong, link is a great product for about 90% of the people out there. But as I aged and learned, link became very limited in my eyes. If I ever decided to build a everyday type street car, I would probably go back to a stock ecu and a maf. Works well and is super easy and fun to tune.

 

[cheekychimp]

^^^ Good to hear and I understand where you are coming from. FWIW if I could find a viable option I'd probably consider going sequential ignition in the black car if I could do it without changing the ECU. But I don't think that's possible even though the CDI can be setup for both sequential and wasted spark and I'm just not ready for the wiring at this stage. I've got too much other stuff to do on that car.

 

[theevozero]

The juice has to be worth the squeeze. As JFK once said, "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard." Granted, he was talking about going to the moon and such, thus taking this way out of context. But, I think you get the picture. If its worth doing, its worth doing right and complete. If its that hard, its probably worth it.

 

[James]

Are you guys done mouth hugging yet?