Autocross Setup

OK, I'm going to do it! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I have been toying around with doing this for a while now, & since I was unsuccessfull in finding a new home for #1303 this year, it's time to build it for the SCCA DSP class & see if it can win at the National level (I think it can). I wanted to build another Miata (I have won a LOT of races in those cars) but making the Galant fast enough to win sounds fun.

The current kings of DSP are 3-Series BMWs, with the Integra Type R, Subaru 2.5 RS & a few others just a bit behind. The top BMWs of course are RWD, have about 200WHP & weigh about 2800-2900 lbs. So, the Galant looks pretty good with AWD, & should be about 280-300WHP (if set up properly) & around 2900-3000 lbs. I am pretty happy with the way the car currently handles, but I would like some better shocks/struts (I have AGXs now). Will Konis made for a 1G DSM work in our cars? The other thing I need to address is power. Per Street Prepared rules, I can run any intake & any exhaust on a stock long block, & turbo cars are allowed unlimited boost pressure. But, I have to use a completely stock turbo & wastegate assembly, as well as the BOV. Is 300WHP possible with a stock 14B & stock engine at 20+ PSI? What would the best fuel setup be to get that result, or whatever the best result possible? I currently have 650s with the big Walbro pump, would I need smaller injectors even at 20+ PSI with a 14B? Let me now what you guys think, I will try to keep everyone posted as the season goes how the car is doing! The attached picture is actually when I first built up this car. I originally set it up for DSP back then, but in those days turbo cars had to run stock boost levels. Even still, on skinny 225s (the class winners all run 285s or bigger) & only 9.5 lbs of boost I still trophied at the only National I ever entered with it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Mark

BTW, I'm looking for some stock & other parts to do this, so I created a post of what I'm looking for in the want to buy section.

 

[HHIVR4]

You need to really be rule specific to stay in DSP.You may have better luck in STX or STX "R" if there still is one(slick class).Do what you can to stay out of a race tire class unless you are going to do fender flares to get more tire under the car..You can easily end up in SM especially if you have upgraded brakes,clutch,boost control etc the you will pretty much have all slick'd competition..Our main disadvatage at auto x is our skinny tires and our excessive weight.Not to mention chassis rigidity is an issue as well as AWS if you still have it on the car.

There are several new classes and class rules for AWD cars now..I have been out of the auto x loop for a few years so my knowledge isnt up to par.

Edit:I beleive that you are not allowed to upgrade brakes other than pads and you must run stock intercooler and piping.

 

I know what you mean, getting into Street Prepeared & beyond is a big commitment, but unfortunately I am way beyond STX at this point. Even if I could though, a well set up GVR4 will never out run the top WRXs & now RX8s that just got moved to that class. Fortunately for me I am a 17+ year autocross veteran, running & winning in a variety of cars, so I know the rules inside & out. My car is pretty much ready for DSP except the turbo, BOV, front bumper, trunk panels, & possibly the transmission (although I am still checking on that). They actually just opened up the brakes in SP allowing larger set-ups but not smaller ones. My brakes are stock except the lines & pads though, so I am good there. Intercooler & piping are completely open, you just can't modify the bodywork to accomodate them....which is why I now need a stock bumper /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif Anyway, thanks for the advice!

 

[Olson]

I was running DSP for a bit up north here. I think its possiable but it will take alot of work to make it close to the top dogs out there. I feel the 14b is a good turbo for auto-x'ing,
Depending on how far you want to bend the rules i would go with a 2g manifold and port the 14b turbo and maybe even port the manifold. Thermal ceramic coat them to fight the heat that its going to generate. Run the turbo wide open i say you cant run race gas ubt if you can get E85 or get alot of additave to put in there and bump the octane up.
Use DSMLink to tune with use the 2 step to get off of the line (i did) and tune for power.
take everything you can out of the car. ie cruize, a/c, heat, radio, speakers, anything you can think of take it off take the back seatbelt out of the car take small brakets out of the car , get rid of the front seats,belts and use lighter seats with some sort of harness.
REally think outside of the box on this.
Suspension.
dont skimp on it, if your a 17+ year vet you should know this. I say Call Larry Parker up and tell him what your looking at doing and he can get something up and running for you.
I have a set of his Hotbits and i can say they are by far the best ive ever been in. Ive drivein and riden in some really well sorted auto-x awd cars and these are good and those same people agree.
Get slicks go as wide as you can Run alot of camber up front to help fight the front heavyness of the car and help it corner.
I say stay with the stock brakes just get good rotors and killer pads less rotaional mass there.
thats a bit off the top of my head.
Jake

 

[Olson]

Oh
300whp on a 14b... i dont think so but im not an expert. I think ... mid to low 200 is what a healthy 14b runs. I ran my 950's with the 14b /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif theres no reason to down grade. DSMlink idled them like stock to.

Another thought.
Look into flares your going to need them to run as big of a tire as you can

 

Having run ESP in my Galant (based on similar classing of TELs at the time), I really think your odds are long in DSP. You will be up against lighter and more nimble cars including 3 series BMWs and Acura Integras, and your somewhat higher HP will not make up for your greater weight. As you have already correctly pointed out you have to run stock BOV and wastegate. Read the rules very carefully. Unless things have changed you also have to run the stock boost control system in SP which means no external boost controller. This becomes a severe limitation and ultimately is why I went to SM, which was before STX caught on. You may be able to find a home in STX or STU.

You will NOT be competitive in any SP class without race tires, period, and SP does not limit the width of the tires. If you go into a race tire class, for this car's weight you need much more rubber on the ground than will fit inside the fenders so start figuring out how to go wide. It is possible to run 275's on 10-inch rims but they stick out. The tire issue may be another good reason to run an ST class.

Konis for a DSM will work with our cars if Hotbits are too expensive for you. I had to build a 3 inch spring perch for the rears because the springs were short. You will want to think through spring rates and swaybar options. I highly recommend ditching the rear steer if not done already, and installing a rear LSD. I went through 2 TEL rear LSD's in as many years because they just were not durable enough in that type of race, and went mechanical. I'd have been money ahead to go that route from the start. A front LSD is good but less important. Check whether a rear LSD is legal in the SP and ST classes if the car was not originally so equipped.

Good luck and keep us posted.
Mike R.

 

[markrieb]

Go back and look at the rules again as I think that the SP classes allow modification to the BOV (actually compressor bypass valve is a better description as it doesn't intentionally limit boost). Intake is open from the throttle body to the turbo and from the turbo to the MAS.

I beleive you can use a boost controller, but you cannot touch the turbo or the wastegate acutator.

The biggest problem is being limited to a 14b turbo as you just won't be able to make enough boost to make up for the weight of the car.

To be competetive, you will need to lighten the car to the extent the rules allow. You will also need the biggest tires you can get on the car - 275's are about right, but you might be able to do OK locally on 235's or 245's. The issue there is the 4-bolt wheel lug pattern - without going to really expensive wheels, anything more than 8" wide isn't widely available. I think Mike R ran steel wheels (Diamond?). You will also need the best shocks you can afford as the AGX's probably won't cut it with the spring rates you will need to run.

If I was going to do it, here is my list (some of it may have to be custom built...)

Front and rear strut tower brace
front camber plates
good shocks/coilovers (Penske, Ohlins, Bilstein) double adjustable
At least 245 wide R compound tires, better yet 275's (Kumho or Hoosier)
Flare or roll the fenders to clear the tires
Big front and rear swaybars (25/27 mm?)
All urethane bushings, including Whiteline caster bushing (everything including control arms, motor mounts and mustache brace)
Rear urethane or solid pillowball mounts
light weight seats
light weight steering wheel
AC and radio delete (if allowed by rules), sunroof delete (you'll want to do that for head room anyway)
big front mount IC and IC piping, good BOV
hard pipe air filter to turbo pipe, a hood vent or something to get cold air to the intake
No need to change the intake manifold, unless you find one that is a bunch lighter than stock
AEM EMS or other stand alone ECU
big injectors (maybe as large as 1000 cc), fuel rail, fuel pressure regulator and fuel pump
tune for and run on E85 (this will be key to running big boost on the 14b)
3" turbo back exhaust as short as possible with as small a muffer as possible and no cat(exit just behind the front doors - as short as the rules allow)
A brand new 14b and wastegate

Even then it may not be comptetitive. Although it might be comptetitive in the STX class with nearly all of the above mods against the base WRX, but wouldn't have a chance in STU against the STi/Evo/M3/RX-8.

It is not a bad car to autox, but it is heavy with a camber limited strut suspension and will be slightly underpowered with the 14b. The stock 4WS may also give you some issues with no recourse to be able to fix it.

Mark
ex GVR-4 SM autocrosser (now Karter's car)
ex Evo VIII STU/BSP autocrosser (RIP - damn truckers...)
now STS2 Miata (corners nice, but damn is it slow)

 

[Ted Andkilde]

You should call Alex' brother Nick at Dentsport, 1-781-551-3399 and see if you can find the old thread on his track Galant -- he got his car down to 2400lbs or so caged so he has some special weight reduction powers. He also worked up a set of ground control coil-over part numbers to fit the EVO MR Bilstein setup which will fit a Galant with minor mods. Apparently they work great, are inexpensive and are revalveable to match your new springs by someone like Larry Parker.

Don't know if it's class legal but Larry has laser cut plates for welding up the "active-toe" nonsense on the rear control arms as well.

I've autocrossed my Galant, bone stock, recreationally a few times. I didn't find it very rewarding to drive, felt about as nimble as a garbage truck on a tight course (I normally run an old Mini) so IMO it's a pretty big mountain you've chosen to climb.

Good Luck, Ted

 

What Mark said is about right.
I have not bothered to read the rules for SP in a long time as I no longer run that class. But at one time you were not allowed to alter the boost control system, which meant no external boost controller. If that has changed then you can at least increase boost to the point where the effectivness of your ported stock turbo is maxed out.
Mike R.

 

Thanks everyone for the great advice. I should have 1st told you guys how I already have the car set up, as most of what you guys have been suggesting I have already done. Here is a link to the for sale post I did on the car last year....
click

I know I am weak in the shock dept, & I definitely will go up in spring rates, but being somewhat on a budget means probably custom valved Konis for now. I am going to squeeze some 245/40-17 Hoosier A6s on the 5Zigen wheels I currently have for now, but if the car proves to be close in competition then I will have to have some 18-10s made & put 285s all the way around with flares. In the power dept, yes the rules have changed. A couple years ago SCCA allowed any boost level in SP as long as you did not modify or replace any of the mechanical parts, such as turbocharger, wastegate assembly, etc. But you are allowed to use things like boost controllers to alter the boost. Bypass valves must be stock, but you are allowed to vent them however you want. I do want to get DSM Link, I am just now hearing about this (I know, I know, I have been out of the DSM world for quite a while). I have a spare Eprom ECU, what's the best way to go about getting DSM Link, & then getting it tuned (here in Norcal)? I am not the best tuner, & would really rather someone set it up for me if possible.

The car will go on a bit of a diet, but most of what you guys are suggesting I have already removed. In SP, we cannot gut the interior, but things like radio & A/C can be completely removed. I also think I can legally removed all the body cladding as well, I am going to check into that. I have a light Sparco driver seat, I just still need to get one for the passenger side. The car is not as heavy as you would think. The way it sits now it came in at 3103 lbs, not too bad. Knowing what else I can remove suggests I can get the car down to + or - 3000 lbs, not far from the BMWs at all. In fact, the National Champion BMW last year was a 330I, which is heavier than our cars I believe. So, assuming I can make the power (I think I need 275+ WHP) I think the car will be right there. On intake manifolds, is there any sizable gain in power going to a sheet metal type? I know it will save weight, so that alone is worth it to me, just curious if it will help with power too.

I would run STX just for the challenge of it (sorry, a GVR4 will never win that class at the national level), but they just made a rule change this year that says "if your car originally had A/C as standard equipment, you may not remove it". Well, I am NOT going through the effort of putting all that stuff back in just to get beat up by WRXs & RX8s.

Thanks again guys for all the feedback, my poor car has been sitting for quite a while so I am very excited to get it going again!

 

[JB]

Quote:
On intake manifolds, is there any sizable gain in power going to a sheet metal type?



Most smim's move the powerband up the rev range. May need to rev higher than what an autox warrents to see the gains. May not be ideal for autox.

 

[HHIVR4]

Arent you allowed to update or backdate stock parts..Say you have a 2g with a gay plastic bov and you backdated it to the 1g bov or swapped your t2slow to a 14b..Why couldnt you use a small 16g they came on RS VR4's from the factory.

 

[belize1334]

I may be wrong but I seem to remember that if you either a) modify the chassis in any way or b) change any component BETWEEN the turbo inlet (intake side) and the turbo outlet (exhaust side) you're in SM. That means that you can't put in a bigger intercooler and even if you could, you can't hack the bumper to make it fit. Maybe those are old rules or maybe I just never looked carefully enough into SP.

 

Well I definitely ran a bigger IC when I was in ESP and nobody whined about it, and I think that was allowed. What you were not allowed to do was make a change that was comparable to changing engine displacement, meaning larger turbo. Update/backdate only works with other models listed on the same line that lists your model car. When I was in SP the car was not even listed, I just went where the TELs were slotted. Also, cars in SP are (or were) required to run as equipment or supplied to the US market, so a JDM spec would not be legal. Something like an early Evo would have to run in Prepared or Modified class because it was not a model sold to the US market.

Of course, keeping local you can make all kinds of illegal mods and nobody would care or even know what questions to ask, unless you were stomping all over the class. For example, in ESP one of the Mustangs I would regularly run against and beat had an illegal engine build but he rarely trophied and he was a good guy so nobody gave a sh*t. (They were a lot more bothered about getting beat by my 4-cyl 4-door.) But if you somehow do get this thing to be competitive at the National level, you better be absolutely sanitary on rules compliance because you could get called out. But you know that.

Mike R.

 

You should be able to hit or at least get close to 300 with the 14b. I did 230hp 231tq @ 16psi with 450's with the mid and wot switches on the maf-t set one click richer with a near perfect a/f ratio. At 18psi, I hit 230hp/258tq at 4500rpms when fuel cut shut me down and my turn on the dyno was over.

 

[CP]

Think he can get away with a "stock looking" turbo like the EVO3?

My car has all the suspension mods you're interested in. You'll like it around the cones. I used mine on road courses and it was very neutral. With a mostly stock interior and JDM bumpers, I was at around 3000# last time I had it corner balanced and aligned. 2400# is a dream that's unattainable if you ask me, and I seriously doubt that Nick's car was that light. Last time we were at a time trial together he blew the motor on that white car.

My car will be for sale in the next few months if you want one that's basically ready to race at a fraction of the cost for all the goodies bought brand new:

Hotbits double adjustable external reservoir coilovers with upper spherical bearings and adjustable front camber plates
4-bolt LSD rear end
Rear wheel steering eliminated
Tower bars
1" rear swaybar with poly bushings front (stock bar) and rear
Rear "active toe elimination" kit welded into the trailing arms
17x8" wheels w/ 235/40 Hankook RS2 tires
Schroth harnesses
Momo Competition steering wheel
Caster bushings
Porterfield RS4 brake pads with stainless lines
Plus the 100 other things I've done to the car to make it capable on the track

Link to my GVR4 track vids.

 

[belize1334]

This is a direct quote from SCCA Solo rulebook under Street Prepared. In any of the less prepared categories, such as STX or STU, you can't mess with anything between the compressor housing and the exhaust housing. In SP you can use any intercooler you want and any manifold you want but you MAY NOT cut the bumper to fit the intercooler and nor can you use a JDM bumper (which would make the vehicle ineligible under anything other than SM). Of course, you could easily run a 16g and nobody would know the difference but if you went to nationals and your vehicle was challenged, you'd lose. Also, if you went for ain Air-Water intercooler setup you'd be able to fit the heat exchanger behind the stock bumper without cutting.

ENGINE AND DRIVE TRAIN
Vehicles may only exceed the allowances of 13.10 as specified herein.
A. Engines must retain standard type lubricating system, but may
have any oil pan (Accusump-type systems allowed), oil pump
and pickup, oil coolers, oil or fuel filters. Fuel filters must be of
automotive type and may serve no other purpose; a substituted
fuel filter may not be used as a reservoir. Substituted fuel filters
may not exceed one quart total capacity. A permitted oil cooler
may be positioned in an opening in an allowed spoiler, provided
no unauthorized modifications are made in order to perform the
installation.
B. Heat shields may be added.
C. Induction allowances are as follows:
1. Carburetors, fuel injection, and intake manifolds are unre-
stricted, subject to 15.10.D. Alternate throttle linkage and
connections to facilitate installation of allowed induction
systems are permitted, but may serve no other purpose. If an
induction system item is allowed to be removed and its origi-
nal mounting bracket can be removed by simply unbolting it,
the bracket may be re-moved as well.
2. Except for standard parts as defined in these rules, the exter-
nal use while on course of liquids, ice, dry ice, refrigeration
systems, vaporized compressed gases, etc. to reduce the
temperature of the intake air charge is prohibited. Wrapping
of intakes with liquid-soaked fabric is not permitted.
3. As utilized only on engines originally equipped with forced
induction, induction charge heat exchangers (known as “in-
tercoolers” or “charge air coolers (CACs)”) are unrestricted in
size and configuration. Air-to-air CACs and radiators for air-
to-liquid CACs must be cooled only by the atmosphere, except
for standard parts. Body panels, fascias, or structural mem-
bers may not be cut or altered to facilitate CAC installation.
4. Turbochargers and/or superchargers (“forced induction”)
may not be added, changed, or modified (this does not allow
ceramic coating of turbochargers). On vehicles originally
equipped with forced induction:

 

[Ted Andkilde]

FWIW, there is plenty of room for a decent sized front mount to drop into the same spot as the AC condenser and the pipe routing isn't bad -- no need to cut the bumper cover. Probably not the best for a road race car as the rad has to share the same airflow but fine for autocrossing or a street car.

Cheers, Ted

Also, from a quick read of the rules above, while an external intercooler sprayer is out, there's nothing to stop you from going with a water or meth injection nozzle internally at the hot side of the intercooler as well as at the TB which will dramatically reduce your intake temps.

 

[Junior392]

This may be a question that most people know already but I want to ask anyway. The BMW, Miata, Subaru 2.5rs listed above are all NA vehicles. In Auto Xing wouldn’t you want a non turbo car due to a turbo is lagy. I understand when at full boost and into the torque ban you have an advantage but shifting gears and on and off the gas while making turns could cause lost of time. I am not trying to discriminate against your build or interest just curious on why a turbo car for this type of motorsport? Thanks in advance. GL with your goals.

 

Quote:
there's nothing to stop you from going with a water or meth injection nozzle internally at the hot side of the intercooler



Methanol injection = not allowed as it is a nonlisted fuel modification. Water injection = allowed.
Mike R.