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7 Bolt Rod Question

Holy sh*t curtis that is awesome! If the ID matches the crank journal, why not get the block lined bored/honed to match the OD of the roller bearing? Or was does that only match the rod journals?
 

Yeah that 45mm is for the rod to crank, not crank to block. If we could get the 4g63 FULL roller bearing then these motors would be unstoppable!!! and rev out like a lambo... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worthy.gif
-Greg
 

Dialcaliper

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Needle and roller bearings are awesome from a friction and load carrying standpoint, but the problem is longevity - rolling element bearings hate eccentric loads more than a fluid bearing with proper pressure.

Even worse, the higher the RPM, the more severely the lifetime is reduced (Bearing companies have lots of batch testing and have come up with some empirical formulas to predict average lifetime). Bearings have to be massively overspecced for loads to meet the lifetime requirements.

Rolling element bearings are awesome for small, light engines, and for efficiency, but for a high performance engine that sees high crank loads and high RPM, the bearings will would have to be very robust, and having lightweight and incredibly well balanced internals is a must.

It varies by manufacturer, but bearings are rated to a standard load for 10% failure after a million revolutions (Timken tests at 500rpm for 90 million revs and back calculates)

Here's a good Primer

The general rules of thumb for lifetime in number of revolutions are:

Doubling the load reduces life to 1/10
Doubling rotational speed reduces life to 1/2

The reverse is also true. Furthermore, the speed calculation is for speed only, and does not include the effects of eccentric imbalance. If it were the only load (not including piston loads), because of centripetal force (increases as the square of RPM), doubling the speed increases the force by a factor of 4, which reduces the bearing life to 1/100th, plus the speed increase which results in a total lifetime reduction to 1/200th.

A 4 cylinder crank properly balanced has an alternating eccentric load on each journal equivalent to half the weight of the piston and the small rod end that never goes away, and can be fudged as lasting half of each rotation.

Consider that at 9000rpm, our engines will see as much or more loading on the rods from rotation as from cylinder compression , and that that peak load is applied directly to the bearings instead of somewhat tangentially, and you can imagine the problem involved in even calculating what size and rating of bearings to use. Don't let me discourage you from trying, but it's not as simple as picking a bearing based on the load rating, unless you don't mind a 10% failure chance after a little under one engine hour at full throttle (at an average of 3000rpm say, on a trackday, not even including the effect of the eccentric load). Say less than 10,000 miles on the odometer before the bearings start failing? I pulled that out of nowhere, but you get the idea.

Fluid bearings do not have longevity issues. As long as the oil is fresh and clean, and the pressure is high enough to carry the peak load, a fluid bearing will basically run forever barring contamination or oil starvation issues. This is why we use oil bearings in automotive engines. Motorcycle engines that run high RPM but low inertial loads can get away with it.

Roller bearings have a place in high efficiency automobile engines of the future, but don't expect to see them in high performance street applications any time soon. (sorry to rain on your parade)

Edited for truth:

Quote:

Yeah that 45mm is for the rod to crank, not crank to block. If we could get the 4g63 FULL roller bearing then these motors would be stoppable!!! and rev out like a lambo...
-Greg

 
Last edited:

Wow that was a whole lot of math, and info. I cant believe that I actually was able to follow the whole way through.
Well that kind of sucks... And is a VERY good point! Kind of a bubble burster though /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif. Oh well that one is out. But Still the thrust fluid bearing on the rod is still in play.
By the way all that bad stuff I said about the bearing companies is starting to not become true. I heard back from them just about an hour ago. They are supposed to send me a longer list of bearing possibilities. I am hoping to narrow it down to one that will work well. This list they sent me were just bearings that they sell individually, So they are going to send me a list of the sizes of the ones in the sets (like what we would buy for an engine build). But I am slowly making progress. I am actually glad to see this post making some people think and not just write it off and say, "buy new rods and machine them to fit the pistons" This is what it is all about. GOOD STUFF. Thanks for all your help and knowlage guys.

-Greg
 

curtis

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Clarksville TN
Best of luck on the list Greg and let me know what you find. When I saw it say 80mm od I knew it was a dead project. After taking the rod out that large the rod strength would be nothing. As for mains it would probably be something to look at but another variable is oil pressures roller bearings need alot more pressure to survive probably something like 60psi at idle. Then up higher the pressures would be way more than the turbo head needs so the cost of pressure reducing valves etc and the parisitic drag that the oil and pump creates would probably out weight the increase in performance.

At least were thinking. For guys that have followed this check this out.

Coates spherical valves

I first read about these in a magazine in the early 90's.
In this video the 302 ford engine at the end made 1000 hp na with just the carb set-up. I saw a video of the engine running ones and 15K with a big heavy V8 was one of the sweetest sounds ever.
 

curtis

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Joined
May 4, 2003
Messages
11,892
Location
Clarksville TN

This is the email I received from the Cleavite last night... they are out of the picture...

"We'll be glad to make your flanged bearing for you. We need a minimum order of 1000 pieces.If the upper and lower are different, that's a thousand of each. Tooling for a flanged bearing typically cost you about $6-12K, the bearings run about $20-$25 each. We start with a print supplied by you, process a quote from that with a delivery time of 12-15 weeks from date the print is approved. I'm afraid these are your only options from us.

Bill"
 

Dialcaliper

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Great, you only need 124 other people who want to put Evo rods in a 6 bolt, in which case it would only be $250-300 each engine. (8 bearings each)? You can almost buy new rods for that... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif
 

curtis

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Joined
May 4, 2003
Messages
11,892
Location
Clarksville TN
Had a thought and when I get a chance after the holidays I'll run to the machine shop. We've been thinking to much. Roller bearings would be the baddest mod to the car to date but reliability may not be there. Now mine are pauter rods with full floating bronze bushings on the pin end. I just though of this why not machine out the factory bronze bushing then have a set of bushings made that are stepped and are two piece in design. Lets say for example the width for the rod in the piston is 2 inches and the rod is 1 inch. We'll machine a pair of bronze bushings for each rod one inserts from the left and one from the right being .999 long. The bushing small end will press fit in the rod and the other will be stepped out triple the size etc and have slots cut at an angle for oil were it would touch the piston. Or cut them from steel and then insert in the rod, hone to fit new bushings and insert a one piece bushing in there. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif


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