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#139 - 14b dragstrip results <- Updated

NateCrisman

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Nov 22, 2008
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Blairstown, NJ
I took #139 over to Island dragway tonight to meet up with a bunch of GVR4 guys and make some passes on my new "temporary" setup: a stock 14b turbo with 6cm turbine housing and 1g o2 housing (both very lightly ported). The T3T4 I ran on the car last season started smoking since re-assembling the car this spring with a different stock motor, so I bolted on some parts I had around the shop to keep the car drivable while I decide what to do with the T3T4 system.

Anyway..here's the setup. I estimate about 3080 to 3100 lb total weight. On hoosier QTP's. 2 gallons of 116 racegas.

12.921 @ 106.09 - 1.764 street pumpgas tune & boost level. 5000rpm launch = BOG Boost spike to 24 falling to 19psi at 6800rpm shift points. 17* - 19* timing. mid 10's AF. 85*F on line 99*F at trap.

12.334 @ 110.18 - 1.601 6500rpm studderbox. Boost spike 25psi fall to 20.5. Timing 19* to 22* 6500rpm shifts Low 11's AF

12.223 @ 110.50 - 1.582 Timing 21 - 23* Mid 11's AF Same boost & launch.

12.310 @ 110.63 - 1.643 same tune. tried to drop clutch faster = little more bog. AIT 75* on line up to 93* at trap.

12.169 @ 111.16 - 1.582 Boost turned up. spike 26.5 fall to 21psi. Same tune. AIT 76* line to 95 at trap. shifted 3-4 early at 6200.

12.424 @ 109.56 - 1.602 Hotlap style ...tried shifting at 7000rpm in every gear. it didn't like it at all. 82*F on line up to 102*F at trap. Hot motor/turbo/IC and past peak power = lost mph.

I was set to make one last run, but the lanes closed. I had bumped the launch rpm to 6900 and planned to rev out first to 7000 and shift rest at 6500. But I still think it would have maybe been another 12.1 or a 12.0X at best.

Stats for the 12.1 run: 4.961 330' - 7.729 @ 88.82 1/8mile - 10.142 1000'


I was really hoping for an 11.9, but damn I just couldn't get the car out of the hole any better. It seems like this combo just doesn't make any power past 6000rpm and wants to be shifted very early around 6200-6500rpm. That doesn't work out so well when you launch at nearly 7000rpm. It feels like I shift out of first so soon!

Things to improve: Maybe the 6cm housing and stock o2 housing? stock cams? I suppose I could have leaned it out another half point to 12.0AF. Maybe gone another degree or two of timing? Im really not sure why the 60' wasn't quite as good as I had hoped for.

Im working on uploading a youtube video tonight.
 
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NateCrisman

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Nov 22, 2008
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2,054
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Blairstown, NJ
It's at 26psi for like seriously 150rpm before it falls down to 23psi. for instance 3rd gear on the 12.16 pass:
4906rpm: 25.38psi
4968rpm: 25.10psi
5100rpm: 23.28psi
5400rpm: 22.29psi
5656rpm: 21.75psi
6031rpm: 20.66psi

Boost falls off REAL fast...the datalog graph really shows a quick spike and it settles down to the 22psi range right away. Ait temps at the throttle body didn't seem as affected by raising the boost past what most people think a 14b should run by nearly as much as I would have guessed. And the car did pick up some mph by raising the boost each time.
 

blackvr4

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May 19, 2009
Messages
226
Location
NJ
Good numbers man! what do you have done for weight reduction? Oh and be really careful running the 14B at that kind of boost! I have personally blown up 3 14Bs running 25+psi, the nut that holds the compressor wheel always seems to spin off I don't know why.
 

60 ft times look great. I think those times/traps seem to make sense for your setup. Very impressive to see the ait and timing not being extreme. Good work but you mentioned changing the turbine and the o2 housing, isnt that a slippery slope? Pretty soon you will want to change that wheel and port the compressor right? I think before you touch that it would be awesome to see you hit an 11 on a 14b with stock turbo components. It's your car of course but I think you are on to something about changing the cams. If that setup doesnt like high rpms then stock cams or 264s would probably fatten that mid torque curve pretty nicely.
 

NateCrisman

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Nov 22, 2008
Messages
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Location
Blairstown, NJ
Quoting blackvr4:
Good numbers man! what do you have done for weight reduction? Oh and be really careful running the 14B at that kind of boost! I have personally blown up 3 14Bs running 25+psi, the nut that holds the compressor wheel always seems to spin off I don't know why.



Check out my members section for a full breakdown of weight loss. FYI..the cast Evo3 manifold, 14B, and stock cast 1g o2 housing were exactly 1lb heavier than the complete T3T4 setup with tube manifold/o2 and an external w/ dumptube.

I swapped to 2G GST spyder wheels..that saved about 6lb total compared to the aftermarket 16" wheels I ran with last year. Going back to the stock intake manifold gained weight though.


I'm only spiking the turbo at about 23psi on pumpgas and it falls off to 19 real fast. But I will keep an eye on it. A buddy swapped me a small 16g yesterday that I think Im going to swap in, since this 14b was really intended for my DSM (hunting for 14b records).
 

NateCrisman

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Joined
Nov 22, 2008
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Location
Blairstown, NJ
Quoting crankwalk:
60 ft times look great. I think those times/traps seem to make sense for your setup. Very impressive to see the ait and timing not being extreme. Good work but you mentioned changing the turbine and the o2 housing, isnt that a slippery slope? Pretty soon you will want to change that wheel and port the compressor right? I think before you touch that it would be awesome to see you hit an 11 on a 14b with stock turbo components. It's your car of course but I think you are on to something about changing the cams. If that setup doesnt like high rpms then stock cams or 264s would probably fatten that mid torque curve pretty nicely.



I agree on the slippery slope, If I take it apart enough to swap turbine housings and the o2 housing, Im 95% of the way there to just installing a 16g and being done with changing stuff. I really had no "goal" with this, it was just for fun. If it hit 11's..that would have been awesome, but I need to concentrate on getting my DSM built and running more than I need to spend my time/effort/concentration trying to eeek 2 more tenths out of this 14b/gvr4 combo. I beat SleepyVR4's 14b record time, so I guess getting an 11 was just an arbitrary goal. Not to mention this is my only car & daily driver. The whole reason I put the 14b on was so I could keep driving the car after the T3T4 I had started smoking. If I had planned to really try and get the best time possible from a 14b, I would have waited and put a heavily ported 7cm housing and a tube o2 housing on the first time.

As for the cams...Im on the stock cams right now. Actually the longblock is completely stock other than BSE kit and a forward facing oil filter housing. The stock cams and 14b boost falloff are what's causing the major lack of power past 6000rpm. Power producing mods are pretty much limited to:

[*]Evo3 exh manifold with some porting. All I did on the 6cm housing was smooth out the step for the sealing ring a little bit...honestly, just put a 45* bevel on the edge as the housing was so heat hardned it was near impossible to port.
[*]AEM boost controller
[*]DSMap speed density tuning
[*]fuel system upgrades: walbro 255, 750's, afpr, -6 lines.
[*]3" to 4" cold air intake pipe to headlight opening
[*]3" turboback exhaust
[*]a large XSpower fmic core, and some nice IC pipes.
[*]light flywheel and crank pulley are worth some effective power. [/list]


I really think a set of 264/272 size cams would wake up the 6500-7500 power range, which would help the ET significantly. That would allow me to launch at 6800-7000rpm, with a clutch engagement drop to about 6400...and still have some time in first gear making a little power before having to shift. The cams "could" be all it would take to nail an 11.90. I have a set in the shop, but Im saving them for my 1g.
 
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NateCrisman

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Nov 22, 2008
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Blairstown, NJ
Ack. watching video frame by frame: Im spinning the tires pretty hard off the line. I can't believe I didn't really notice it last night at the track! Explains the slow 60' times for sure. Funny how it seems so obvious in hindsight, but at the track last night I would have sworn I was completely hooking up. The car still left pretty hard, it's not at all like spinning street tires where you just sit and go nowhere, but just wasn't quite as hard as it should have been. I was attributing the 60's being about a tenth slow to "early 1-2 shift & lack of power at high rpm". In reality I was simply spinning the tires.

When I had the bigger turbo, if I spun the tires on the launch it wouldn't hook up at all in first gear and as the power came up it would totally haze the tires. And if it was totally hooked up, it moved out to 1.48 to low 1.5's. But with this low power setup, it seems I can spin them initially and kinda "ride it out" and the tires hook up about 20' off the line and still go 1.58 to 1.60. listed to the squeel in the videos If it was 100% hooked up I should have been doing about a full tenth better 60'

Thinking about it last night, powerband just isn't a reasonable thought when it comes to the weak 60'. My talon in 2004 with 14b on the same dia tires, same total weight, same mph, same engine combo with stock cams and 14b...would consistently go 1.50 to 1.51 and 11.9 @ 111mph. Theres no reason this car can't do exactly the same or better.

I guess Im going to give it another shot in a couple week to try and get an 11.9
 

CarRacer

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Jun 28, 2007
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Shakopee, MN
For fun my ass. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif


Go get em next week. Looks like a ton of fun in a car you take your kids to school in.
 

NateCrisman

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Joined
Nov 22, 2008
Messages
2,054
Location
Blairstown, NJ
My buddy Utah made an in car video (simple "jam a P&S digicam in the headreast method worked great)
http://vimeo.com/11199098

847058096_oY25M-M.jpg

847057973_wrmSj-M.jpg

847057833_WRhLd-M.jpg

 
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cheekychimp

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Apr 19, 2004
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7,333
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East Sussex, U.K.
Nice video! Quality is impressive for the simple setup. It always amazes me how slow and sedentary everything looks from inside the car compared to out.
 

ApexHunter

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Apr 25, 2007
Messages
1,992
Location
Marysville, WA
That gearbox looks pretty sweet, mine sure won't let me get away with that. I'm afraid i'm due for a rebuild. Nice driving anyway, even with the wheelspin you seem to be gettin it out of the hole pretty good.

Thought about putting a velocity stack on the end of that intake? Looks like it could be useful if you are trying to eek everything you can out of a 14b or the s16g.
 

NateCrisman

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Nov 22, 2008
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Blairstown, NJ
Quoting CarRacer:
For fun my ass. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif


Go get em next week. Looks like a ton of fun in a car you take your kids to school in.



2 Weeks most likely. I really want an 11.9 before I put the 16g on.

I'v got a 7cm housing here that I'll finish porting. Got to pick up an o2 housing upgrade...likely a cheapo Ebay one. That should open up a tick more power and a little rpm. With the forward facing ofh and alternator relocation, i think I can swap the turbine and o2 housings without disturbing any oil lines or the exh manifold, making it a pretty quick swap. Then I can just quick change the turbo cartridge for the 16g a few weeks later without having to undo any exhaust parts.

Going to make a bracket to run one of the light race seats from my DSM. next time out, ill try dropping the exhaust system (38lb) and the leather seats & baby seats (about 100lb) for a good chunk of weight loss.

Next time i'll start out with 15psi in the tires and work down till it hooks up 100%. I had 17psi in them on friday. I should be able to run 1.50 to 1.45 60's, which alone should be enough to nail an 11.9 @ 111mph.

As typical, try to improve in all areas: power, weight, traction. Give it another go soon.
 

TurboTrader

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Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
161
Location
Pemberton, NJ
That's impressive! 14b @ 26 psi FTW! I would think you would lose alot at around 20 from the 14b, it's amazing the difference a good intercooler can make. Nice runs!
 

1qkfwd

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Joined
Sep 29, 2009
Messages
209
Location
Sun Valley, NV
For that lil Hairdryer working so hard, the ait's look really good. I've seen setups where the ait's raise up to 45*. I don't see why you wouldn't get 11s with as much as your changing.
 

3rdstrikedsm

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Joined
Feb 17, 2008
Messages
3,402
Location
32159, FL
Why not do a burnout before you stage? I found this to lower 60ft by quite a bit and since I have gone this route I never looked back.

I hit a 1.59 60ft last year on crappy all season tires which is a new personal best for me as I seemed to be stuck in the mid 1.6 area.
 

NateCrisman

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Nov 22, 2008
Messages
2,054
Location
Blairstown, NJ
Quoting 1qkfwd:
For that lil Hairdryer working so hard, the ait's look really good. I've seen setups where the ait's raise up to 45*. I don't see why you wouldn't get 11s with as much as your changing.



I ended up picking up another parts car that had an E3 16g turbo and a punishment racing 2.5" tube o2 housing, so the turbine housing and o2 housing are going on this week.

As per the 14b air temps...yeah I was very surprised! Below is the graph from my 11.1 @ 123 run with a 50trim T3T4for comparason: Note the AIT is way up at the end of the track and both are 75 on the starting line.
datalogGVR4.pdf
 
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