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A Tale of two TiALs (FAIL)


NateCrisman
Fisheye Hoodpins
418/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 927430 posted 09/02/10 04:07 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
So I'v been running a knockoff fake tial style bov since putting my GVR4 together in summer of 09. I got it stupid cheap and after hearing internet chatter of how it works exactly like a real $225 Tial brand bov, I figured why not.

The GVR4 has always had what sounded like a hissing vacuum leak around the bov area, which I'v had the boost controller solenoid (AEM tru-boost) T'd into. If you pinch off the vac line to the bov...the hiss stops. (why this didn't lead me to think the bov was leaking months ago...I don't know. slipping in my old age?) I can't say for sure when I first noticed the vac leak sound, but I remember it being there when I first put the 14b on the car in like april. Boost control on the car has always been "boost spike with significant falloff" with every turbo (50trim, 16g, 14b). The AEM boost controller has always been nearly maxed out on duty cycle (nearly 80% to get barely 24psi) and never seemed to be consistent, pretty opposite of many other people's experience with this controller.

So I swap the bov onto the talon and make passes a few weeks ago, and while swapping it back onto the GVR4, I notice it's making a clicking sound. flip it over:



WTF: the nut is gone and the main plunger/disk is not connected to the shaft!!!!!



So now I got on the frantic search for the nut, which I assume has to be in the intercooler pipe of the Talon. It's all of 12" long between the air/water ic and the TB. nope. take of TB: it's not in the intake manifold either. The nut is not in the DSM's engine/intake.

Now Im thinking that the nut must have came off while the bov was on the GVR4. I pull and check those pipes....nope. (I haven't checked the intake manifold of the GVR4 as that's major work, but the car runs fine). Neither engine is going to survive ingesting an aluminum or steel nut, so I feel somewhat safe to say the nut is just [B]GONE[/B] and must have been lost one of the times I had the intercooler piping off on the GVR4 during the 3 engine swaps or 3 turbo swaps and I never noticed the clicking.

So I buy another of the same knockoff tial while on vacation, thus I don't have to swap them from car to car. Figured I'd go find a matching nut to the new one in order to repair the old one (with red loctite). The new one does not have a nut on bottom...the shaft is threaded right into the disk. It's in an XSpower branded box BTW. Here's the new/old bov side to side:



Closeup of new one:




So now Im wondering
  • "did Chinabay change the design after finding out that nut tends to fall off and munch intake valves & pistons?"
  • "for how long as this bov been non-functional?" - maybe for months, maybe the whole time I'v used it?
  • "maybe this was a major contributing factor to the snapped 14b shaft?" - yeah...I bet!
  • "how much has this been a factor in performance and tuning?"
  • "was the bov leaking boost the whole time?" - maybe why my boost controllers are always maxed out and I'v had boost drop-off with every turbo I'v used on both cars.


seriously....this stupid BOV might have been leaking and limiting boost on every pass I'v make in the last 2 years!:icon_idea::icon_frown: GVR4 might have gone 11's on 14b if this thing was indeed leaking?



GVR4 #418/2000: [email protected] - pump/alky -
GVR4 #431/1000: [email protected]+
GVR4 #139/1000: T3T4: [email protected] - 14B: [email protected] (sold)

www.PerformancePartout.com


Edited by NateCrisman (09/02/10 04:08 PM)

Posts: 2054 | From: Blairstown, NJ | Member Since: 11/22/08 | IP: (71.2.41.120) | Report this post to a Moderator

mitsuturbo
Banthony
555/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 927432 posted 09/02/10 04:15 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Was there ever really a nut on the old one? Or were there threads in the stopper which have been long since stripped and worn out?



92 GVR4 555/1000 11.41 @ 128.26mph
97 CBR900RR
2012 Hyundai Veloster

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thecman02
too lazy to look
580/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 927435 posted 09/02/10 04:26 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
See... I haven't heard about the BOV's being exactly like the real deal, but I've heard of guys using the wastegates. I have heard lots of people actually rebuilding ebay wastegates with tial rebuild kits. That is quite the bummer though if that stupid part ruined every run your cars have had for the past two years.



580/1000
2013 Max Effort Winner
-Chris

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NateCrisman
Fisheye Hoodpins
418/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 927436 posted 09/02/10 04:29 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting mitsuturbo:

Was there ever really a nut on the old one? Or were there threads in the stopper which have been long since stripped and worn out?




The main disk from the old bov is significantly different from the new style and the old style one is only about 1/32" thick where the threaded shaft goes through, so there was definatly a nut holding the assembly together at one time. There's also a flat machined into the disk where the nut would sit.



GVR4 #418/2000: [email protected] - pump/alky -
GVR4 #431/1000: [email protected]+
GVR4 #139/1000: T3T4: [email protected] - 14B: [email protected] (sold)

www.PerformancePartout.com


Edited by NateCrisman (09/02/10 04:30 PM)

Posts: 2054 | From: Blairstown, NJ | Member Since: 11/22/08 | IP: (71.2.41.120) | Report this post to a Moderator

G Galant VR4.org Moderator
JDM Unit
486/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 927454 posted 09/02/10 05:23 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Knock off ftw!



www.japanesenostalgiccar.com
www.nostalgic.co.jp

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mitsuturbo
Banthony
555/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 927456 posted 09/02/10 05:25 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Well, the area where a nut would sit doesn't really look like you'd be able to get a nut AND a tool in there to tighten it. I'd also think it'd be marred up from where the nut was loose and maybe scoring against things. If you've taken it apart completely and verified it's supposed to have a nut, then so be it. I'm not saying either way. It just "looks", from the photos, like it'd be threaded into the piece.

Maybe it's just wishful thinking. I guess i'm hoping there's not a nut rattling around somewhere in one of your intake manifolds, more than anything. That would totally suck.



92 GVR4 555/1000 11.41 @ 128.26mph
97 CBR900RR
2012 Hyundai Veloster

Posts: 3535 | From: Near Seattle, Washington | Member Since: 06/02/08 | IP: (130.76.32.144) | Report this post to a Moderator

TylerAdamson
circles method
934/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 927462 posted 09/02/10 05:37 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Why not pick up a used TiAL as opposed to spending more money on something that's failed you already? Seems like the logical thing to me. Used TiALs pop up for ~$120.00 every week.



1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD FP3565 Powered
1992 Mitsubishi Galant VR4 934/1000

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GreenGSX
One Member


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 927470 posted 09/02/10 06:14 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
looks like the diaphragm is installed backwards.



click

Posts: 681 | From: Rochester, New York | Member Since: 05/15/05 | IP: (67.246.248.41) | Report this post to a Moderator

H05TYL
Hover/Stand/Bend


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 927482 posted 09/02/10 07:50 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting TylerAdamson:

Why not pick up a used TiAL as opposed to spending more money on something that's failed you already? Seems like the logical thing to me. Used TiALs pop up for ~$120.00 every week.




Totally agree. The genuine ones don't cost much new anyway though these days.

To the OP: So you bought a cheap copy of something, and it's not worked how it should due to it being poorly made? There might be a moral in that somewhere...



JDM E39A - 0010362 VR-4 Project 燃えないゴミ(Unburnable Junk) - stolen
JDM E39A - 0020096 VR-4 Daily - sold


Posts: 752 | From: Wgtn, NZ | Member Since: 06/09/07 | IP: (121.73.146.65) | Report this post to a Moderator

464/2K
<3s Rance and self distrusts
464/2000
1025/2000
553/1000
788/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 927492 posted 09/02/10 08:14 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Why in gods name would you support a company that stole another companies design?



_Ricky-
464/2000
788/1000
'95 Lancer Evolution III

2005 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VIII
"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime"

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3rdstrikedsm
Now mandatory for Wendy's Chili to come with cheese


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 927493 posted 09/02/10 08:15 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I have known people running 10's for years on these knock off wastegates and bov's this is actually the first failure I have heard of but I am not surprised either.



1994 supra 6spd 612whp and more to come soon!
1995.5 Audi s6 Vi-pec powered!

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4thStroke
Spence knows tools
786/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 927500 posted 09/02/10 08:24 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I don't think the failure rate is very high on these altogether, but rather the cheap internals provide undesirable results. You can call it failure if you want. I've heard that the springs become inconsistent over time and boost control is tough to manage (in reference to TiAL knockoff wastegates).

Posts: 1864 | From: Vancouver, WA | Member Since: 10/22/07 | IP: (71.34.113.179) | Report this post to a Moderator

NateCrisman
Fisheye Hoodpins
418/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 927513 posted 09/02/10 09:10 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Im not pissed at all, this is exactly what I expect from a cheap copy $30 bov. If I had paid $200 for a new tial and had a failure like this, I'd be screaming pissed off. But this is the path I choose: Cheap or used parts. I'v pretty much completely built this GVR4 and my 1g AWD on the cheapest used parts I could find. If I can have two new working BOV for less than one used "authentic" ones, then that's the way I'm going.

actually, I think this is half the fun of modifying cars for me: doing it on a budget. Getting the most performance I can out of junk I'd certainly rather do it this way vs tossing $$$ into the car buying all top of the line parts and getting, well mediocrity; exactly what everyone expects from cubic dollars. There's no challenge in building a car with your wallet Not to mention there are no cubic dollars to be spent.

So...Im going to go buy a $0.30 nut, and put the second bov back on. This isn't really much of a spectacular failure, I just posted it because I thought some of you guys might find it interesting to see the design change in the bov, hear the story of the frantic nut hunt, and maybe get some feedback on the possible leakage affecting the cars' performance.



GVR4 #418/2000: [email protected] - pump/alky -
GVR4 #431/1000: [email protected]+
GVR4 #139/1000: T3T4: [email protected] - 14B: [email protected] (sold)

www.PerformancePartout.com

Posts: 2054 | From: Blairstown, NJ | Member Since: 11/22/08 | IP: (71.2.41.120) | Report this post to a Moderator

NateCrisman
Fisheye Hoodpins
418/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 927515 posted 09/02/10 09:11 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting 464/2K:

Why in gods name would you support a company that stole another companies design?




That's American Capitalism at it's finest baby!



GVR4 #418/2000: [email protected] - pump/alky -
GVR4 #431/1000: [email protected]+
GVR4 #139/1000: T3T4: [email protected] - 14B: [email protected] (sold)

www.PerformancePartout.com

Posts: 2054 | From: Blairstown, NJ | Member Since: 11/22/08 | IP: (71.2.41.120) | Report this post to a Moderator

curtis Galant VR4.org Moderator
Space Blanket from NASA plumbed into the attic
475/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 927529 posted 09/02/10 09:41 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I just looked but I guess they went to the metal recycler. everytime my buddy swaps out a broke ebay special he saved it. At one time had 6 ebay 16G's in the corner and a bunch of bov's and gates that I grabed up. I only have one bov piston and its different than that and is solid with 4 set screws in it. Maybe its a version one and you have a 2 and 3.


Or maybe its a wastegate piston.



92 GVR4 0475/1000
Greenhouse Effect Green
Exceeds Mechanical Limits
"Put the dawg to work.
Ass, Gas or Milkbones. Nobody rides for free" Jon AKA Toybreaker


Edited by curtis (09/02/10 09:43 PM)

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NateCrisman
Fisheye Hoodpins
418/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 927530 posted 09/02/10 09:45 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
3 different versions. ahahah nice. Ill upload some pics of the inside of this bov.



GVR4 #418/2000: [email protected] - pump/alky -
GVR4 #431/1000: [email protected]+
GVR4 #139/1000: T3T4: [email protected] - 14B: [email protected] (sold)

www.PerformancePartout.com


Edited by NateCrisman (09/02/10 10:46 PM)

Posts: 2054 | From: Blairstown, NJ | Member Since: 11/22/08 | IP: (71.2.41.120) | Report this post to a Moderator

IncorpoRatedX
I'm an idiot...
501/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 927555 posted 09/02/10 10:32 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
you bought cheap ebay knock off shit.

i hope your engine blows up...



-Joshua Adventure Driven Design
1991 Galant VR-4
1999 Montero "Goldi-Locker"

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3rdstrikedsm
Now mandatory for Wendy's Chili to come with cheese


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 927556 posted 09/02/10 10:32 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting NateCrisman:

Quoting 464/2K:

Why in gods name would you support a company that stole another companies design?




That's American Capitalism at it's finest baby!




Lol truth!



1994 supra 6spd 612whp and more to come soon!
1995.5 Audi s6 Vi-pec powered!

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Barnes
Firechicken
908/1000
237/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 927558 posted 09/02/10 10:39 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I'm seriously confused by the American Capitalism comment.

I think I've come to the conclusion that china-bay parts is like the car part equivelent to movies from bit-torrent. You can't get away with it for free, but you can get away with it for less.



-Jon Barnes
#580/2000 (Long Gone)
#908/1000 Black (Sold)
#237/2000 White

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NateCrisman
Fisheye Hoodpins
418/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 927574 posted 09/02/10 10:56 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting Alpha Male:

you bought cheap ebay knock off shit.

i hope your engine blows up...




I hope your anus catches fire the next time you shop in a walmart, buy a cell phone, or buy/use pretty much any product in the commercialized world (damn near everything is a copy off or improvement in value/cost from another companies product). Don't be all high and mightly about a stupid bov.

Actually, I think the manufacturing quality of this $30 bov is 97% as good as an authentic Tial bov. The materials and machine work are perfectly fine for the intended use. The diaphragm, Vband clamp, hose nipple, banjo bolt, oring and crush washers, I wouldn't be surprised if they came out of the same part supply bin as an actual tial. Basicly, I wouldn't call this part "cheap shit" since the build quality is actually pretty nice. Better than the price would suggest and better than some brand name BOV I have used in the past. (like those dogshit TurboXS "held on with set screws" bov).



GVR4 #418/2000: [email protected] - pump/alky -
GVR4 #431/1000: [email protected]+
GVR4 #139/1000: T3T4: [email protected] - 14B: [email protected] (sold)

www.PerformancePartout.com


Edited by NateCrisman (09/02/10 11:06 PM)

Posts: 2054 | From: Blairstown, NJ | Member Since: 11/22/08 | IP: (71.2.41.120) | Report this post to a Moderator

NateCrisman
Fisheye Hoodpins
418/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 927581 posted 09/02/10 11:04 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting BarnesMobile:

I'm seriously confused by the American Capitalism comment.

I think I've come to the conclusion that china-bay parts is like the car part equivelent to movies from bit-torrent. You can't get away with it for free, but you can get away with it for less.





I really don't think of this bov as "stolen" like Bit-Torrents are to software. I don't believe TiAL holds any patent on a simple diaphragm/piston valve that is well...the same thing that 25 other manufacturers produce that function the same way for the same intended use. This XSpower bov looks similar and mounts to the same flange. It's extremely similar. But in all honesty, it's different enough in details and cosmetics that I'd guess that it doesn't violate any kind of patents Tial has anyway.


Seriously, do you guys shit a brick that a Motorola cell phone is the same basic design as another brand cell phone?
Do you shit a brick about cheap brand LCD TV's being damn near the same thing as a brand name Sony Aquios TV? (flat screen, buttons on side, wires in back)

Just arguing devil's advocate here btw. I'm realistic to know this valve is a direct knockoff of a real tial. It's a china copy marketed to steal sales from the USA company TiAL. But that's the way the world works. That's the way american companies work. (plenty of them are involved with the import, distribution, marketing, and sales).

Taking someone else's good idea or design and making it cheaper IS THE AMERICAN WAY OF BUSINESS. That is capitalism at it's root....taking advantage of what you can to make a buck.



GVR4 #418/2000: [email protected] - pump/alky -
GVR4 #431/1000: [email protected]+
GVR4 #139/1000: T3T4: [email protected] - 14B: [email protected] (sold)

www.PerformancePartout.com

Posts: 2054 | From: Blairstown, NJ | Member Since: 11/22/08 | IP: (71.2.41.120) | Report this post to a Moderator

turbowop
Hard Snarker
1051/2000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 927591 posted 09/02/10 11:40 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Taking somebody else's product and copying it exactly but with shittier quality materials and workmanship is not the "American way", IMO. It's douchebagism.



-Mark

A face only a grocery shopper could love.
1051

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NateCrisman
Fisheye Hoodpins
418/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 927597 posted 09/02/10 11:50 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
The the current state of USA industry is doushbagism. Anyone that thinks more than 1% of USA corperations management won't lie, steal, & cheat to make $1 more profit is in a completely delusional state. It's certainly not the american ideal, but it's the hard true reality. TiAL might be in that 1% that is owner operated small business that is run by real ethical people, but they are a small sad minority in this world.

Not to mention this BOV in question is slightly different in many ways for the parts that are not "off the shelf - generic supplied parts". The body, disk, stem, and top hat are machined different and cosmetically different than a Tial. It's not a direct copy any more than a schwin bicycle is a copy of a huffy bicycle.

Not to mention, if XSpower can sell a product with as good function for a fraction of the price, then by the standards of capitalism....XSpower deserves my business and TiAL deserves to go to bankruptcy. In MY OPINION the XSpower bov is 85% as good as the Tial and less than 1/3 the price...IE better value.





GVR4 #418/2000: [email protected] - pump/alky -
GVR4 #431/1000: [email protected]+
GVR4 #139/1000: T3T4: [email protected] - 14B: [email protected] (sold)

www.PerformancePartout.com


Edited by NateCrisman (09/03/10 12:02 AM)

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ApexHunter
Extreme Indoor Cyclist
1951/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 927600 posted 09/03/10 12:04 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
My biggest gripe about the whole knockoff market is that the consumer ends up supporting this company that is capable of copying but not necessarily innovating. So then what do we leave ourselves with after we put the innovator out of business because we buy the cheap copy? Part of what you pay for when you buy a brand name item is the R&D. These chinabay copycats get to bypass that often expensive part of the process. I'm all for saving a buck wherever i can cause let's face it, this is not a cheap hobby. I just try and by used or shop around for the best deal i can find.

Posts: 1945 | From: Oceanside, CA | Member Since: 04/25/07 | IP: (72.219.178.220) | Report this post to a Moderator

NateCrisman
Fisheye Hoodpins
418/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 927657 posted 09/03/10 07:35 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
I will agree with ApexHunter. But I will add one point: There is a grey area in which some products lay, and I feel the bov is one of them: in that there really is nothing innovative about TiAL's bov design. It's a simple valve not a complex machine. There are only so many ways to make a bov and in the end the only differences between an HKS, Greddy, Tial, turboxs, forge end up being cosmetic design, fitment to a specific application, and size/shape details. When a product is as basic as a simple two chamber valve, I don't think you can apply for or obtain a patent because the design/function is so simple that it's considered common knowledge. You know, like why goodyear doesn't have a pattent on "rubber tire"

To that end, TiAL's bov design was unchanged from like 1997 to just recently when the recirqulated version and the Q came out. Tial isn't at all expending huge sums of R&D money designing a simple bov or even continually updating the exisiting design. I suppose the point could be made that Tial is lucky that these knockoff's have only come out after they had a good decade of sales without any R&D expense. It's not like Tial designed the valve last week and Chinabay copy was on ebay the next.


Again, Im sure I come off as an unpatriotic douschebag red commie in this thread whatever. I like arguing the unpopular side of things just for fun, maybe in the same twisted way that I like building my DSM's with shitty parts just because it's a different challenge than throwing cubic dollars at it. (the same reason why I will never buy FP products) (the same reason that I have DSMlink on the car, but am quite ashamed of it..it's too spendy of a part)



GVR4 #418/2000: [email protected] - pump/alky -
GVR4 #431/1000: [email protected]+
GVR4 #139/1000: T3T4: [email protected] - 14B: [email protected] (sold)

www.PerformancePartout.com

Posts: 2054 | From: Blairstown, NJ | Member Since: 11/22/08 | IP: (71.2.41.120) | Report this post to a Moderator


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