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Injector Size


AWDaddicted
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 511268 posted 07/27/07 12:38 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
My mods this far are:
Big 16G turbo, 3" down pipe, race cat, 3" catback, balance shafts eliminated, solid motor mounts, 255Lph fuel pump, ACT 2100 Clutch. ETS front mount intercooler and piping. ETS intake pipe.
As far as engine goes I have a rebuilt engine with Wiseco Pistons and Eagle Rods.

My plans are to eventually go with a big turbo. I want an injector that can handle a bigger turbo or higher boost at the track. At the same time with the high gas prices these days I'd rather not have an injector that is going to waste TOO much gas while i'm on the smaller turbo. I have an SAFC2 that I'm going to use to tune the new injectors. Any other things I could add to the SAFC to make it better for handling larger injectors? Right now I'm thinking of FIC 950's how does this sound?



I know I'm going to get alot of people suggesting DSMlink. That's in the works for the future too. For now I wanna use the AFC I have.


Edited by AWDaddicted (03/25/08 01:32 PM)

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 511269 posted 07/27/07 12:39 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
yes get dsmlink and 1000cc. that way you never have to upgrade again.



_Ricky-
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belize1334
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 511273 posted 07/27/07 02:07 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
With 1000cc injectors your fuel pump is going to run out LONG before the injectors do.

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CP
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 511288 posted 07/27/07 06:38 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
You need a bigger fuel pump than the 190.



-Cy
Resident Spec Miata Racer | '93 Audi UrS4 | '04 Ram CTD | #1788/2000: SOLD

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atc250r Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 511294 posted 07/27/07 07:10 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Injectors will have no effect on fuel economy as long as they are being compensated for properly. I get over 25mpg on the highway with my VPC and 720's. Get a set of Denso 720's, have them cleaned and flowed, then have Jeff burn a chip to compensate for them. You can use the SAFC to fine tune it once the KD Chip is in.

John



"...if they're so into masochism, they should just really go all out and start modifying Mitsubishis. And using them as daily drivers." - Mike R.


Edited by atc250r (07/27/07 07:11 AM)

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Garfield Wright
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 511302 posted 07/27/07 07:55 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Go with the denso 720's & get a chip from Jeff. This can put you well into the 500+ hp range. You'll need to upgrade the fuel pump very soon so keep that in mind.

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keydiver
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 511304 posted 07/27/07 08:00 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

From what I've heard the SAFC is only really able to handle up to 7XX's.




If you remove that much airflow with an AFC you will have so much knock that you will have to run less boost than you are now.
The ECU uses the amount of airflow (load) to decide which AFR and timing maps to use. For every 10% you remove on an AFC you are going to have to deal with ~2 degrees more advance, which is counterproductive to running more boost on pumpgas.
We fought this issue for many years, until I figured out how to remove the fuel from the chip instead, and then DSMLink now offers even more tunability, but the results are the same: removing FUEL instead of AIRFLOW is the only right way to do it.

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WesS
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 511365 posted 07/27/07 10:26 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
^^^^--I learn something everytime you post. I love it!





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turbowop
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 511542 posted 07/27/07 02:43 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

I get over 25mpg on the highway with my VPC and 720's.




Hell, even I get that type of mileage with my 950's and Maftpro...until I start stomping the pedal down to pass people.



-Mark

A face only a grocery shopper could love.
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Brianawd
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 511576 posted 07/27/07 03:50 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I have got a best of 21.7mpg with e85 and 1600cc injectors, and with my old set up I got 27 mpg with my 550cc injectors



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200hp/385tq


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AWDaddicted
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 511984 posted 07/28/07 08:24 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Is the 190 LPH fuel pump really that bad?! From what I was told It'll be able to handle street fuel needs. What is it's limit injector wise? Can anyone correct me if I'm wrong?

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AWDaddicted
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 512005 posted 07/28/07 09:32 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Anyone?

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ggsxkid
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 512022 posted 07/28/07 11:13 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
a 255 would be a better candidate for handling "street mods"



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AWDaddicted
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 512051 posted 07/29/07 01:53 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
What about the 190. What is it's range for injectors. I have one in now. I'd rather not change it quite yet. If i have to then so be it. But what can I expect it to handle? Anyone have any knowledge on this subject?

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 512052 posted 07/29/07 02:00 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
this should help a bit...



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Founder of Sold out to BMW Cru, then sold out there too.


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keydiver
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 512215 posted 07/29/07 09:11 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
The way you read that chart is like this:
"12.5 volts" would be about right for a NON-rewired fuelpump
"58" would be equal to you running 21 psi of boost on top of your stock 37 psi fuel pressure
"145.11" equals the liters of fuel per hour that the fuelpump could pump at that 58 psi fuel pressure.
So, is that enough??
Let's say you have 650cc injectors maxxing out at 100% duty cycle (I don't recommend that, but...). That is 4 X .650 liters/minute = 2.6 liters/minute, or 156 liters/hour, almost 10% more flow than the fuelpump can deliver. But, chances are that at 21 psi you are nowhere near to maxxing out 650's, unless you are in Cali running 91 octane. However, the situation gets even worse as you raise the boost. The chart doesn't give enough enough datapoints to calculate this exactly, but at 25 lbs of boost and 62 psi fuel pressure, where the 650's are getting closer to maxxing out, that fuelpump will be well below 125 liters/hr, so you WILL lean out.
I guess it all depends what you consider a "street" car.

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AWDaddicted
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 512223 posted 07/29/07 09:46 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
So would rewiring my fuel pump allow the pump to be able to handle 660s? Where do you get the number for the fuel pump PSI?

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speedyvr4
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 512256 posted 07/30/07 12:33 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
my buddy ran a 190 with a 50 trim and it was way more then enough fuel. But a 50 trimm isn't considered a "big" turbo anymore. You could get the 255 as cheap insurance, at 100 bucks a pop, it's way cheaper then running lean and breaking something internal.






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keydiver
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 512269 posted 07/30/07 05:55 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

So would rewiring my fuel pump allow the pump to be able to handle 660s? Where do you get the number for the fuel pump PSI?




As I said, "58" in the "PSI" column represents the fuelpumps pressure, 37 base psi plus 21 boost psi = 58 psi in my example.
If you look right below that in RRE's chart, you will see another set of data for 14 volts, which roughly represents the voltage the pump will see if it is rewired. In that case, the 190lph can deliver "162.78" liters/hour, which is more than 4 650cc injectors can deliver, so it is fairy well matched to 650cc injectors. It all depends how much boost you plan on running. The more boost, the less VOLUME the fuelpump can pump.When that volume drops down below the amount of fuel that the injectors need, you WILL lean out.
4 X 660cc = 2.64 liters/min X 60 = 158.4 liters/hour.
Jeff Lucius has done a ton of fuelpump testing, and although he doesn't show the Walbro 190lph plots, you can plot the few datapoints that RRE gives you, and see how they parallel some of the tested pumps, to get an idea where it will be:
http://www.stealth316.com/2-fuelpumpguide.htm
My best guess is that it will work fine up to ~25 lbs of boost on pumpgas, if rewired.

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rob_a
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 512738 posted 07/30/07 07:28 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I second the 1000cc dsmlink, i just upgraded from 550ccs and an afc and after about 10 min of tuning it already idles and cruises better than the afc ever did, plus now i can run the boost i want.

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AWDaddicted
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 624687 posted 03/20/08 01:51 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
So I've dropped in a 255 LPH pump and i'm looking to get injectors, KD Chip, SAFC, and EVO MAS installed all at once, What size does anyone reccomend? I'm going to be going with a bigger turbo soon so i want something that can handle over 23 PSI. I was thinking PTE 1000cc injectors with a KD chip to compensate. After that i'd add the SAFC to fine tune. What does anyone else think about this? Any imput would be greatly welcomed. Thanks

John
294/2000

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Shiskibob
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 624716 posted 03/20/08 02:24 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I think you should go with the PTE 1000cc. I have a Supra pump (260lph), AFPR - which you will need with a big fuel pump like that - a 3G MAS (identical to EVO) - and DSMLink. You can go with the chip and SAFC if you like. I really like my DSMLink and love to promote it.

Also - is the 255 a high pressure or not?

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AWDaddicted
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 624720 posted 03/20/08 02:30 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
no it is not a high pressure pump, will that still be able to handle the 1000 cc injectors?

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Shiskibob
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 624750 posted 03/20/08 03:10 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Search is your friend.

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keydiver
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 624791 posted 03/20/08 04:39 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
First, there is no such thing as "PTE 1000cc" injectors. Its marketing hype. Delphi calls the injectors "95 lb" injectors, which when converted to cc's by multiplying X 10.5 = 997.5cc. BUT...they lie. Anyone who actually gets a set flowed will tell you that they actually flow between 920cc and 950cc at most. I believe Delphi must flow test their injectors at some higher base fuel pressure, like 49 psi, not the industry standard 43.5 psi where everyone else rates them.
Second, the FIC 950's are the exact same Delphi injector, and I give free shipping on them if you get them with a chip or upgrade. I also correct the chip as close as I can for the *real* flow they have been tested for.
Third, even with a stroker at 23 psi the standard Walbro should be fine, as long as you keep the base fuel pressure at the stock 36.3 psi, and you should probably also rewire to be safe. Non-rewired with 950's at 36.3 psi and 23 lbs of boost you will be good to ~75% Duty Cycle. Rewired you would be good to ~92% Duty Cycle. I think that either one is well beyond what you will be seeing with those huge injectors @ 23 lbs of boost, but I may be wrong.

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