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So, why would my OL thresholds be changed when my speed density was installed?


EfiniX
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1220733 posted 11/20/15 07:11 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I just noticed this. Not sure why, but it would seem as though English Racing changed my low-load and low-RPM OL thresholds when they installed my speed density. I'm not saying it's a problem, but I can't figure why they would do it and I'm damned curious. They basically zeroed-out values below 2000 RPM's.

Ideas?



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1220736 posted 11/20/15 10:14 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Basically, it looks like your car will never go into closed loop before 2k RPM (regardless of throttle input). You can verify that by logging the "OpenLoop" value, and check to see if it ever reads 0.

As for the reason why, I don't have a clue. Maybe their tune ran like butthole when the car transitioned to closed loop, so it was easier to run it in open loop? Maybe they didn't have time to extend the closed loop thresholds, collect data, and let the SD VE Adjust tool do its job? Who knows.

That's the problem when somebody else tunes your shit, only they know all the little intricacies of the tune. Plus, every tuner has their own way of doing things, and own ideas on how to tune best. Maybe they had a reason that we aren't aware of? You gotta hit them up and find that out. Let me know if you do. I'd be interested to know what that's for myself.



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swe_gvr4_1991
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1220742 posted 11/21/15 04:55 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
My guess is the same as GST's. I think they couldn't get a proper tune in closed loop at idle and part throttle so they did the 0's as a band aid.
This is just speculation but there really is no other reason to do that kind of tune otherwise.



.. KiM H ..
Galant VR-4 1991. Gulf spec.
Author of Swede Density software - REAL speed density for 1G's and GVR4's - Videos


Edited by swe_gvr4_1991 (11/21/15 04:55 AM)

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EfiniX
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1220756 posted 11/21/15 10:44 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Sadly, I've become convinced this is the case. On the first tune, I got an evo map on accident and my low-end was crap. Lucas sent me a new 1g map and things got better, but I've been working on the tune ever since (last winter). Of course, that's always going to be the case, as I'm the one driving the car every day making me best equipped to make drivability adjustments. But there were certainly things along the way that left me scratching my head. Things like:

SD installation did not include an IAT. They just zeroed-out the temp adjustments.

VE table had cell values as high as 106

Fuel trims were off by more than 6%

16.5:1 idle AFR

Knock threshold set to 70% throttle @ +4000 RPM's

and now I discover the OL settings have been changed.

Ultimately what I've done has been to adjust my global fuel towards 0, reduce the VE values to bring my max cell number to sub-100, modify the tip-in, tune the crap out of everything (idle, cruise, accel, and WOT), change the timing map, adjusted my knock sensor thresholds, etc etc etc

Anyway, not a dig on ER. I think knowing what I know now, I would have done much of the tuning myself before taking it to their dyno to get WOT dialed-in. I think I just got the sequencing of the work backwards. They were always very kind and happy to answer my questions.

I already changed the OL values back to default and the car's been fine. I'm fixing a fan issue and installing an IAT tomorrow, so we'll see how that goes.



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prove_it
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1220767 posted 11/21/15 12:45 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
As much as VE values over 100 might bother you, it's not uncommon to see it. Sometimes it's how the balance of tuning works. Ideally it should be around 100 at full load, but it's not a perfect world. If your idle is good, and all over data is good, don't stress about it. It is just a mathematical calculation anyway and not a "real" value.



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EfiniX
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1220768 posted 11/21/15 12:46 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Oh yeah, I know. That was more housekeeping than anything else.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1220786 posted 11/21/15 05:04 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I have values up to 108 on my VE table. It doesn't hurt the tune, just makes it harder to compare some of the values. I'd love to have mine be closer to 100, but don't feel like taking the time to go through and fix it when it won't really change the performance.



-Mark

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EfiniX
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1220788 posted 11/21/15 05:22 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
That's why I created a formula-driven excel spreadsheet to do just that. Copy in your current ve table, enter your current global fuel, enter your target global fuel, and it calculates a new ve table.

I adjusted my own table 3 times using this workbook and it went just fine. Basically just scaled everything down relative to the GF adjustment.

click



RIP 543
Ded click
2006 Suzuki SV-650 (for sale)
2011 BMW 335d (~510'lb/tq and 36mpg. hwy. How can you go wrong?)

Posts: 647 | From: portland, or | Member Since: 10/18/12 | IP: (209.152.45.54) | Report this post to a Moderator

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1220791 posted 11/21/15 05:27 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
No doubt, English knows what they are doing. But, it's probably just like everything else: Nobody gives a shit about your car like you do. It's hard to say how many fucks the tuner did or didn't give the day they tuned your car. Unless you know what you're looking at, can harass the tuner during the tuning process, and are willing to pay for time on the rollers while you're doing it, you're pretty much at the mercy of the tuner.

Some of the stuff you've said seems whateves to me, but again, maybe there's a thought process behind those things we aren't aware of. But, things like no IAT (or suggesting one for a DD) seems off to me. IIRC, I think Mark said he cooked a set of plugs in 1051 on an English tune before he tweaked it

What you may want to try is just starting completely from scratch. I mean, what's there to lose? You can always revert to the old tune. Between here, the ECMtuning forums, and DSMtuners, you have the potential to tune the car better using a collective pool of feedback than any one tuner can anywhere. Least, that's my .02

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EfiniX
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1220792 posted 11/21/15 06:40 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I'm actually pretty happy with where I'm at right now. My car was running fine and i was tuning for low-end acceleration when I noticed the OL settings. It seemed like a reasonable reason why tuning at low RPM's was such a bear.



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2006 Suzuki SV-650 (for sale)
2011 BMW 335d (~510'lb/tq and 36mpg. hwy. How can you go wrong?)

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GSXftw
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1221097 posted 11/30/15 03:29 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I have "touched up" a few tunes/cars from english, mainly ones on SD after an airflow mod and needed dialed back in. Honestly I havent been terribly impressed. Theres a 2.3 stroker on E85, a 98 GST on pump, both of those ER did the SD installs and some wrenching as well as the tunes, neither one had IAT sensors. When I asked the owners why they simply stated "they never mentioned that"... I dont know I feel like its a pretty important part and they should work on their parts consulting, then again nobodies perfect. On the other hand Ive seen a few Evos from there that have them. Theyre great at making awesome power and track times but for what these cars are used for (street, autox, drag, ect) an IAT is a pretty important part to be overlooking.
As for the OL thresholds, Ive always ran a bit higher than stock and gone for that econo cruise... 50% throttle and 1.01 load factor, slightly lean cruise and get 22mpg city with all kinds of mods



1722/2000- Burn victim rescue
91 GSX- 11.66 @ 126 donated to save ^
97 TSI AWD - daily
97 GST- 14.7 @ 100 *sold*
82 Supra 7mgte- 12.66 @ 116
77 Camaro- 12.9 @ 107


Edited by GSXftw (11/30/15 03:31 AM)

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EfiniX
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1221114 posted 11/30/15 01:52 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
In any event, I'm very happy right now. My tuning is on the shelf for the moment until I can put a new t-stat in. I'm running a 180* right now, which solved some problems for me over the summer as I was working out the kinks on my new radiator. now that morning temps are in the 20's, it's understandably too cold. Once I get my running temps where I want them, I'll be working out some spool-up knock. Aside from that (which I should be able to sort out fairly easily), things look great. STFT's and LTFT's are very close to 0%, AFR's track well with AFRatioEst, boostest and MAP readings track well, and the car just feels great to drive.

And yeah, I agree that it's one thing not to put in an IAT, but something completely different not to say something. Also, after installing one with Evan, it seems painfully lazy not to install with the SD. It wires right into the harness under the hood and aside from that, you just need to weld on the bung and screw in the sensor. In link, you just put the adjustments back to default values and you're done. I thought maybe they skipped it because it went right into the ECU and they didn't want to futz with it.

Oh, and while wiring it in, one of the butt-connectors they used to connect up the MAP dropped a wire. So first, butt-connector? And second, wire not crimped into the butt connector correctly....

*sigh*



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Mdlimy
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1221119 posted 11/30/15 02:44 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Its sad to hear things like this especially from a business that made their name on these cars. Now it feels like if its not an evo or gtr they don't put the extra care into it.
I called to ask what they would charge to do a dyno tune on my aem v1, i told them it was fully street tuned, drives great, they can throw it on the rollers and make a 4th gear wot pull to redline without an issue right off the bat and it will only need a little tweaking....$750 they quoted me, for what would have been an hour on the rollers, tops. Needless to say, ill be renting some time on someone elses dyno and doing it my self.
I cant blame them, us gvr4 and dsm guys don't have the cash to fork over like the gtr guys, but dont assume that, and dont assume we wont notice when you dont install an iat sensor on a sd setup.



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GSXftw
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1221419 posted 12/08/15 12:57 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
mdlimy. Hit up garage 808 in eugene. Hate for this to be a shameless plug, but they are more what youre needing (like me) I did the same thing. Called english said its 90% done and just need MBT and other dyno only things dialed in, and that I could do most of it if they just wanted to supervise and work the dyno, they quoted the full any idiot price. Meanwhile I was just at 808 last weekend, I was in my supra and just wanted to see what it would make. I called them ahead of time in the week and told them around the time I'd be there, got there, pulled the car in, talked/BS'ed, did some pulls, tried a tweak or two, talked cars and admired all of the DSM goodies I saw (Expo AWD swap!!) and maybe I got the homie hookup price, but it was under 100 bucks. Thats my 2nd time there, the first was our shops sponsored mustang, first pull it fried the entire alternator wire front to back, they gave us wire, connectors, ect everything to keep doing pulls. They have an awd dynojet and a shitload of experience, but are also chill car guys just like we are and give you as much freedom as you want on your car.



1722/2000- Burn victim rescue
91 GSX- 11.66 @ 126 donated to save ^
97 TSI AWD - daily
97 GST- 14.7 @ 100 *sold*
82 Supra 7mgte- 12.66 @ 116
77 Camaro- 12.9 @ 107


Edited by GSXftw (12/08/15 01:02 AM)

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Mdlimy
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1221438 posted 12/08/15 03:55 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Sounds like a really stand up shop, perfect for guys like us that enjoy being very involved or are even capable of doing it our self! I don't mean to rag on ER at all, they are an extremely busy shop year round and I cant expect them to step away from the big paying customer stuff to tune a car right off the street. My buddy actually just bought an awd mustang dyno, for personal use So ill just wait until its all setup before I do any tuning.



1137 summit build thread
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LucasEnglish
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1222313 posted 12/30/15 03:52 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Man little ER Bash fest.

1st: off AEM V1 full tune with support is $750, but we don't really like V1 due to inconstant idle control. We like V2 better. Its $80 for 3 pulls or $100hr for the dyno.

2nd: O2 off at idle is not lazy its more work have to flash it off and tune the car. Most of the time if the car has cams I try to idle them high 12s to 13s for more stable idle. Trying to run trims at idle can make for bouncy dying car. Do to so many race cars I may set cars that could run on the trims this way.

3rd: VE # over 100 is no big deal. By the time you adj your inj and other settings to get VE # under 100 you made a ton of extra work and a car that will not work as well.

4th: Air temp is good data but I feel it does not work on DSMlink since you don't assign it like you to the Map sensor or AF and you can run even the map into that input iat input and select it so how does it adj anything.

5th: in my book + or - 5% on the trims is good. If you want to geek out to 0 go for it. You will find under different situation on the SD trims are moving and its with in the same cell so you can really chasing your tale trying to get 0. I like to to be on rich side if I can because they will drive better.

6th: Most of the time I am 40-50% TPS and around 3k on the knock unless the car has bad PK problems. 70 is a bit higher then normal for me. Not sure if Aaron or I tuned it. I style is close.

7th: yes we are very busy and don't have good freebie time to figure out old DSM. We can do it but the Cost can way to out of hand. And most people don't realize it cost the same to work on your 1991 talon as it does a 2015 GTR. Our labor rate is the same for both cars.

8th: In tuning the goals are does it drive good, not die, Get the right MPP, make HP and not blow up. So chasing a bunch of fake ## that has noting to do with getting a good tune at the end. Remember Link is not a factory SD ECU. Ecu's like Haltech, Motec M1 ETC will see VE # over 100.

Thanks,

Lucas

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LucasEnglish
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1222314 posted 12/30/15 04:02 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
More than likely whatever you said you wanted to do must have been missunderstood with the guy on the phone. Nobody here in their right mind would say a single dyno pull is $750. do you remember who you talked to? Myles, AZ or Atif?

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GSTwithPSI
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1222322 posted 12/30/15 07:10 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting LucasEnglish:



4th: Air temp is good data but I feel it does not work on DSMlink since you don't assign it like you to the Map sensor or AF and you can run even the map into that input iat input and select it so how does it adj anything.





Care to explain this more, because I can't make any sense of that explanation? I can't think of a single reason not to run an IAT unless you're out of ECU inputs. ECMlink uses the IAT just like most other SD systems I've ever seen, so I'm not sure what you're refering to when you say you can't assign it like a MAP or WBO2. It reports air temperature to the ECU just like a MAP reports pressure, or a WBO2 reports AFR. Since air density changes with air temperature, I'd say that's a pretty important piece of information, especially on a street car. I wasn't bashing anyone, just stating my observations.

I understand you guys tune cars as they come to you. Furthermore, it's not your job to configure the car. But, are you saying you don't recommend running an IAT on cars with ECMlink on SD?



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EfiniX
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1222371 posted 12/31/15 10:32 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Geez, did this get out of hand?

To reiterate, I've been happy. My only issues were my own lack of understanding and experience with the platform. A few years in, I've learned a ton and as I said initially, knowing what I know now, I would have approached the work differently. The guy I got the car from was the the type to go cheap and expect everything. I'm not that guy. English did good work at a fair price. There were nit-picky things, but there always will be. Aaron tuned my car, Lucas helped me dial things in and responded to 100% of my emails, and Myles is just about the nicest guy you'll ever meet (FWIW).

My only real gripe is that I assumed an IAT was going in with the SD installation. But I also didn't notice until months later when my tuning chops got to a point where it mattered. I asked about it, was satisfied with the answer I got, and installed one myself when I had the time.



RIP 543
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GSXftw
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1222542 posted 01/04/16 08:13 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
This was not meant to be a bash thread, and I dont see anyone being overly negative or spreading false info. We are merely sharing our concerns, mainly the OP, had legitimate questions, and I for one am happy to have the other side of the fence here to clear things up. I still dont agree with skipping having an IAT sensor, simply because IAT influences AFR, and with it ignored the ecu would only be looking at coolant temp, which just seems inaccurate. Even on a good intercooler car, charge temps are gonna vary a good amount. In the words of ECMTuning, "its absolutely better to have one"
click

Not bashing, not saying we dont appreciate the work you do for the community, not saying your stuff doesnt do work. Mostly just a concern



1722/2000- Burn victim rescue
91 GSX- 11.66 @ 126 donated to save ^
97 TSI AWD - daily
97 GST- 14.7 @ 100 *sold*
82 Supra 7mgte- 12.66 @ 116
77 Camaro- 12.9 @ 107


Edited by GSXftw (01/04/16 08:20 PM)

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