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THE BLACK GOO - E 85 beware :)


GolfBall
Member
1900/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1018841 posted 09/18/11 01:58 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
so i dont know if its discussed much on this forum but the black goo strikes again

Its caused from some additive they put in E85, some areas have it some dont, but its when the E atomizes out of the end of the injector some of the additive stays behind as this black goo / tar like substance.

here is what mine looked like after less then 2k miles. (ones cleaned for reference)




Gave em a little bath in some race gas


and good as new




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GolfBall
Member
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1018844 posted 09/18/11 02:03 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Some more good reading from a scientific determination.

"Alright, I finished my analysis of this stuff, and my finding is very unexpected. I think it will probably surprise everyone else as well. This doesn't appear to be forming because ethanol is "such a good solvent" but because ethanol is a poor solvent. I suppose it should have been obvious when others said that it "washes right off with gasoline". Why would something that ethanol is selectively dissolving wash off with gasoline? If this were something in rubber or from our fuel tanks, wouldn't that imply that gasoline would dissolve it even more readily than E85?

Alright, so what is this stuff? It is a appears to be a very large petroleum based hydrocarbon, similar to Vaseline. There isn't a single hetero-atom in the molecule (ie, the entire molecule is comprised of hydrogens and carbons), but the molecule is very large. It is also completely aliphatic (ie, only single bonds in the structure - no double or triple bonds). Where did it come from? I can only think of two different sources it could be coming from. It is either something that is mixed in with the rubber hoses that is meant to dissolve away in the gasoline, or it is a trace impurity in the 15% gasoline that is in E85 that wasn't separated during the fractional distillation process. Because it is such a large molecule, it wouldn't be very soluble in ethanol and could easily crash out of solution at the injector."

"Well, here is what I did just so everyone is clear. I filled a 40mL vial with E85 and blew it dry with nitrogen gas and mild heating (about 150*F). After there was no fuel left, I placed it under high vacuum to remove any remaining volatiles for about an hour. I was left with a clear sticky residue that smelled bad - like nasty frying oil. I dissolved this sample in the NMR solvent and analyzed it and it IS the same goo that was on the injector. There was smaller amounts of some other stuff in it as well, but the same peaks I saw in the black goo were in this residue. The black goo IS coming from the E85. It isn't naturally black, though. I suspect it just has soot mixed in with it that is giving it the color.

So the next challenge is figuring out why is this crap in our fuel, and if it is in everyone's fuel (particularly people who aren't having this problem)."



PRECISION AUTOMOTIVE DEVELOPMENT
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TRBODSM
Member +


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1018848 posted 09/18/11 02:07 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I've pulled my injectors to clean the "black tar" after running e-85 in my galant. Everybody says to run a tank of 91/93 pump gas every 3-4 tank fulls of e85 to clean out the injectors. I had a little studder at about 2500-3k rpms under regular driving. So anybody that has a little missfire and is running e85 I would clean the injectors.

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gmp
56 pounds
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1018864 posted 09/18/11 03:59 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting GolfBall:

so i dont know if its discussed much on this forum but the black goo strikes again

Its caused from some additive they put in E85, some areas have it some dont, but its when the E atomizes out of the end of the injector some of the additive stays behind as this black goo / tar like substance.

here is what mine looked like after less then 2k miles. (ones cleaned for reference)




Gave em a little bath in some race gas


and good as new






we think the reason here in CO is cause the new e-85 underground tanks at the stations....
There not properly cleaned, so its mixing with all the old shit gas from the tank being normal fuel before hence the goo.



(213of1k) Sold then died.
(179of2k) back in black
Make Old New Again

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donniekak
Member ++


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1018895 posted 09/18/11 12:11 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I've gotten the goo from brand new gas stations.

Quoting gmp:

Quoting GolfBall:

so i dont know if its discussed much on this forum but the black goo strikes again

Its caused from some additive they put in E85, some areas have it some dont, but its when the E atomizes out of the end of the injector some of the additive stays behind as this black goo / tar like substance.

here is what mine looked like after less then 2k miles. (ones cleaned for reference)




Gave em a little bath in some race gas


and good as new






we think the reason here in CO is cause the new e-85 underground tanks at the stations....
There not properly cleaned, so its mixing with all the old shit gas from the tank being normal fuel before hence the goo.




Edited by donniekak (09/18/11 12:13 PM)

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Street Surgeon
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1018958 posted 09/18/11 05:22 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Never hurts to hit em with this once you've cleaned out the exterior too, may want to mix the carb cleaner with a lil' gas as well

Clicky McClickerton



Cory O.
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1018962 posted 09/18/11 05:49 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
do a google search for e85 blackbeard. First I saw of this was a sti that came into my buddies shop. The intake manifold had this crap built up in streaks after posting it here and getting some replies was able to research more.



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brisvr4
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1018985 posted 09/18/11 08:25 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Also have a look on the E85 forum. There is an industrial chemist on there that has been testing samples. I get this as well and just pull my injectors Every now and again to clean them.
It does look pretty damn ugly though!



Tim
1992 Auspec
11.37 @ 131.46 - E85 goodness and stock block!
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thecman02
too lazy to look
580/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1019005 posted 09/18/11 09:31 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I've been pretty lucky. Haven't ever seen that on my injectors.



580/1000
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Brianawd
Higher Launch RPM
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1019028 posted 09/18/11 10:34 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
old news. I believe its has to do with the additives they add to e100 to keep people from drinking it before its blended with gas. Kinda like if you get e98 the 2% is so people don't consume it. Like posted above just run a tank if 91/93 in the car a few times a year or just pull the injectors few times a year and clean. I have 100plus tanks of e85 run through my car and injectors and they still work perfect.



1992 Gaylant vr4 #439/1000
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E85 FP3052 parted out
05 EB EVO SSL 11.48at124mph
450awhp/400awtq New 2.3 e85 hks 7460r
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Yao
Senior Member


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1019105 posted 09/19/11 10:50 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I've stopped running e85 in my car too, due to the black goo and also the stupid price gouging on E85, they should be way cheaper then the gas that was shipped from the other side of the world, after all, they are home grown.



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Nartanian
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1019142 posted 09/19/11 01:21 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      


Had the same thing too. Soaked it in gasoline and they looked good as new. I still questioned it though, so I ended up taking them to a performance shop to get them cleaned and flow benched. Still unsure of the cause.



^^ The post above is guaranteed awesomeness in every way possible because the poster is pure Tard ^^


Edited by Nartanian (09/19/11 02:12 PM)

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UltraVr42
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1019149 posted 09/19/11 01:46 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I was hoping this black goo on e85 was hit or miss, but it looks like I will have to keep a look out for it here in MN. I really dont want to take out the injectors unless I really have to, so I wil try to run 91/93 and see if that helps. (last time, all my seals cracked and had to order new sets!)
This blows!

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Dialcaliper
Flagration Member
1269/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1019156 posted 09/19/11 02:27 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Are you getting your e85 from a station that sells premix, or a blender pump? (one that mixes ethanol with gas from the main station tanks)? What you might be encountering is due to the fact that premixed e85 is often mixed using very low grade gasoline (85 octane or lower - the ethanol largely makes up for it). It's probably sourced from the small amount of gas that is directly extracted from low grade crude oil or natural gas production, as opposed to the majority of gasoline which is processed in some way or another to obtain higher octane mixtures. A number of different processes are used - cracking, alkylation, reforming, etc which all produce slightly different mixtures that will pass the same "octane" rating tests.

What we think of as "gasoline" is really an extremely variable mix of several dozen different liquid hydrocarbons of different types that can pass the combustion and octane tests which allow it to be sold at the pump. (LPG is a similar product). The only real common feature of this mix is that the hydrocarbons all boil around the same (gasoline) temperature when separated from components with higher or lower boiling temperatures during distillation. Before it goes to the pump, it is modified via additives (detergents, ethanol, MTBE, etc) in order to bring it up to various standards.

The feedstock (crude oil) that is used also produces very different mixtures depending on where it came from. "light sweet crude" tends to produce more gasoline with higher octane and light hydrocarbons, where "heavy crude" and "tar sands crude" tend to produce heavier hydrocarbons, and the gasoline that results can contain a lot of heavier tars and waxes. The gasoline from the latter tends to be anywhere from 60-80 octane, and is usually processed in some way to produce consumer gasoline.

E85 blends can be made using cheaper, less processed gasoline when it is available, which leads to many of the problems you are encountering. This is often done to offset the high cost of ethanol, which is not only fairly expensive to produce, but cannot be transported via pipelines because it attracts water, which then contaminates other petroleum products that are also transported through the same pipeline (this is done by inserting a "plug" in between batches of fuel, which keeps the fuels separated). In some cases, lower grades of gasoline are actually required in order to allow the fuel to vaporize more easily, since ethanol does not, especially in colder parts of the country. Recall that the opposite is true - higher octane gasoline vaporizes and burns less easily.

Compounding the problem is that many of the normal gasoline detergents (that prevent the tar buildup that you are seeing) are not compatible with ethanol, and also in ethanol blends, only the gasoline portion contains the EPA required minimum additive levels. (A sidenote - the main difference between cheap gas stations and "top tier" stations that tend to be more expensive is not that the gasoline itself is any different, but that the levels of additives are higher, mainly detergents)

It's such a problem that professional race teams that have switched to e85 have had to source their own blends from manufacturers, which can be blended from a combination of high grade (low water content) ethanol mixed with race gas - the result is much higher quality than the E85 we can get at the pump.

If you have a lot of time, here's a DoE primer on Ethanol fuels: Ethanol

A couple of recommendations if you are having this problem with E85:
1) If your car is still dual-tune, run a tank of 100% gasoline from a "Top Tier" station every now and then (Chevron is my preferred, but there are several. Some independent stations are also certified:Top Tier Stations - You'll probably want premium, but detergent content is unrelated to octane rating)
2) Find a bottle of E85 compatible detergent additive - Chevron's "Techron" is available at many auto parts stores in a bottle. "Seafoam" makes a gas tank additive that is E85 compatible - not to be confused with the popular "spray" product.



1269/2000 Summit White

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dewman
searches...with eyes closed


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1019176 posted 09/19/11 04:14 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Very interesting post there DC. Kinda on the same subject; but would the guys that run a tankful of 91/93 every so often to clean out the fuel system benefit more by using a ethanol free gasoline? I don't know about other states,but here in AR most of the stations have at the least some ethanol mixed in to pump gas.

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Dialcaliper
Flagration Member
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1019177 posted 09/19/11 04:18 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
After doing looking around a bit at some more DoE and ethanol industry literature, the consensus seems to be that the goo is caused by not just the factors I mentioned above no detergents in the ethanol portion of the blend, and lower quality gasoline with a lot of heavy "gum" hydrocarbons, but also a high level of corrosion inhibitors.

The best bet is probably still to use an appropriate detergent additive, but don't use more than "recommended" by the additive manufacturer, as too much detergent won't dissolve properly in the ethanol, and might cause other problems.

I think the actual ethanol content of the fuel doesn't really matter - it's only dependent on the actual additive.

Here's an excerpt from a whitepaper by the RFA (Renewable Fuels Association)

Quote:


Detergents/Deposit Control Additives: Recent studies have shown that E85 may, in some
cases, lead to development of fuel injector and/or intake valve deposits. Preliminary work
indicates that this may be a result of no detergents in the ethanol portion of the blend in
combination with high levels of corrosion inhibitor. This can be addressed through the addition
of detergents/deposit control additives. If an additive is used, the blender must rely on
information from the additive manufacturer. In addition to effectiveness, it should be confirmed
that any additive selected will remain soluble in varying blend levels of gasoline and ethanol, and
that the additive meets the “no harm” criteria, meaning it will not interact with other gasoline
additives present in a manner that would cause problems or reduce the effectiveness of other
additives. Common gasoline additives may not be compatible with E85. The recommended treat
rate of any additive should not be exceeded.





1269/2000 Summit White


Edited by Dialcaliper (09/19/11 04:22 PM)

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accident
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1020443 posted 09/24/11 09:36 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I remember seeing info about this on the evo forums awhile back also. I have ran E85 on a couple of different cars the last 3 years and I have swapped injectors a few times and I have never seen this sludge on any of them. Maybe I just got lucky?

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GSX_TC
295hp 35r BR4
550/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1020539 posted 09/24/11 09:30 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
does that sludge get anywhere else though? and why does that happen, thats crazy, you would think it would do that in other places like the valves or something, not the end of the injector



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KT
Turbotoolbox


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1021551 posted 09/28/11 11:26 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
The ignition would burn it off the valves.



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Dialcaliper
Flagration Member
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1021801 posted 09/29/11 07:06 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Actually, it won't - the deposits form on the tops of the intake valves, not the side facing the combustion chamber. The long term problem (tens of thousands of miles of operation) is that the buildup can get to a point where it impedes airflow. Additionally, with hydrocarbons, the heavier the molecule, the higher the temperature required to evaporate and ignite it. Any of this stuff that does get into the combustion chamber is just as likely to just smolder and turn to carbon rather than burn off cleanly, or else burn incompletely, and send soot into your exhaust (and turbo).

This is literally what fuel detergents were invented to prevent.



1269/2000 Summit White

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FlyingEagle Galant VR4.org Moderator
Eager Beaver


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1021851 posted 09/29/11 10:43 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting dewman:

Very interesting post there DC. Kinda on the same subject; but would the guys that run a tankful of 91/93 every so often to clean out the fuel system benefit more by using a ethanol free gasoline? I don't know about other states,but here in AR most of the stations have at the least some ethanol mixed in to pump gas.




Here in Ontario Canada, the only way to get gasoline without Ethanol, is to use 91 (and up to 94) Octane. 87 runs up to 10%, 89 runs up to 5%. So, for cars that are E85 equipped and maintain that 87 is the minimum octane rating for gasoline usage, you can see where this could create some issues in the long term. Not a big deal, but for dealers/shops getting customers cars with driving issues on just cheap gas alone, if we had any real users of E85 up here, I could see many more driveability concerns related to lower grades fuels from both sides.



C53A 1 of the ~1500

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donniekak
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1021893 posted 09/30/11 01:57 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   

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